When Your No Is A Yes - Understanding Boundaries // with Julia Hogan

[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them a show about raising tween and teen girls to help mindful growth-oriented and busy moms stay informed and inspired so they can show up for themselves and their daughters the way they want to. I'm your host, Carmelita Tiu, also known as Cat or Millie. Join me each week, as I talk to experts, moms who've been there and read a curated selection of articles, always with the authors permission. In this week's episode, Julia Hogan returns with more perspective shifting talk, this time about boundaries, their importance, how to identify them and their interplay with fairness. As you may recall from her episode about self-care and leisure.

[00:00:46] Julia is a therapist, author, and speaker with a mission to help people lead fuller and more authentic lives every day. She's the author of the book, It's Okay to Start with You, published by Our Sunday Visitor. And also available on Amazon, along with other digital workshops and worksheets available on her website, her next book titled A Work in Progress.

[00:01:08] Embracing the life God gave you will be published in spring 2022. Links to her website and Instagram are in the show notes. So make sure to check those out. So I, like so many people can sometimes have a hard time saying no. In my twenties, I think I was a textbook people pleaser, at least in my dating relationships.

[00:01:30] I've definitely gotten better over time, but I still have a people pleasing urge that can sneak up on me when I'm being asked for something I'm not sure I want to or can agree to. I asked Julia to shed some light on boundaries to help me manage them. And also, so I can help my daughters understand this topic better.

[00:01:51] So here's that conversation.

[00:01:58] Can you speak a little bit about setting boundaries, especially for moms and how to set, healthy boundaries?

[00:02:03] Julia Hogan: Yes. Boundaries are such a great topic that I wish I had learned more about in high school and in college, because it really is–it's kind of the foundation of all relationships. I think sometimes we start to realize we need boundaries when our relationship isn't going well, whether that's a work relationship, a family relationship, romantic relationship, any of those friends too, but healthy boundaries are part of any healthy relationship.

[00:02:30] So I think that's a helpful thing to remember, is that we don't need boundaries just when things get bad or get tough, it's something we should always be continually practicing. But really boundaries at their core are things that kind of, knowing our own limits and communicating those limits to other people.

[00:02:49] Right. To be able to say, I don't have time for that in my schedule. Is creating a boundary with someone, right? In saying, I don't have the resources for that, or that doesn't align with what my focus is or my priority, whatever the reason is. But it's a simple way of saying this is my limit and letting the other person know.

[00:03:07] Right. And it can, I think boundaries is such a big topic. Oh, there's lots of books about it because it is, it sounds so simple, but it's so tough to do, right? Because there's a lot of meaning that we place on the limits that we set, whether we have trouble acknowledging that we have limits and we can't do it all, or we feel guilty.

[00:03:29] We don't want to disappoint people, we don’t want to let them down, but then that's at the expense of ourselves. So it's important to know our own boundaries first so that we can enforce them going forward. 

[00:03:43] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And how would you say, like, how do we suss out what those boundaries are? Because especially as people who are people pleasers, or maybe moms, it almost feels like if there's an ask, like you want to address it, you want to solve a problem.

[00:03:57] And yeah. How would you encourage moms to identify a boundary that's coming up? 

[00:04:02] Julia Hogan: Yes. Well, I think probably just starting from the standpoint of reminding ourselves that we can't do it all and that it’s okay. Right? We are not robots. We don't have endless walls of energy and emotion and time, and we just can't do it all.

[00:04:23] And so I think. Taking a step back, like you said, how do you identify your boundaries? I think the first step is identifying what's important to you and your family, right? Is it, you know, spending time together as a family? Is it your family values? Like you said, you know, values are modeled and observed and learned in that way.

[00:04:43] Like how do you communicate that? And then making sure that the decisions you're making are in line with those values. So how you spend your time. It's great if another family is involved in this activity or does things this way or go, you know, go on these types of vacations, but it doesn't mean that your family has to do that either, especially if it doesn't align with your values, right?

[00:05:06] And so it could be something as simple as we don't do extracurriculars on Thursday nights because that's family time. And so we just like, unless it’s a kind of emergency it's just a flat out no, right? Because your, no is a yes to whatever you are honoring as a priority, right? And I think that's key. I did not come up with that.

[00:05:29] I heard that somewhere and I was like, that is just the best way to. That's the way to understand boundaries is your no is saying yes to either something you've already committed to or something that's more, more important, more valuable. 

[00:05:42] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah. One of your values, that's–for some reason that really resonates.

[00:05:45] Like I think a lot of people think of no means no. And then sadness, sad trombone sound. But when you–having that perspective shift, it's a no is a yes. Just something else. I love that. I absolutely love that.

[00:06:03] Julia Hogan: Because I think when you're looking at your calendar and someone says, you know, hey, can you squeeze in this meeting?

[00:06:08] Maybe you could make it work. But at the same time, are you going to be able to be fully present at the meetings you're feeling stressed or rushed or does that mean you have to cut time short with you know, something else that you're doing? Then it doesn't really feel like a free yes, right? It feels more like, Ugh, I guess I have to squeeze you in, right?

[00:06:28] But if you say, no, I can't do that time. I can do another time. Or just  a no. It's allowing you to then fully kind of like double down and really pour your energy into everything that you've already committed to. Whether that's professional life, personal life. Both. You know, everything. 

[00:06:45] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Right. And I have noticed in the scenario that you brought up, if I'm pushing to squeeze something in or to accommodate someone, I feel a little bit of resentment welling up inside.

[00:06:58] And so the way I interact with that person or that in that situation is not. I would like to be ideally. So yes, this is all kind of tying together and making me understand this no, as a yes. And don't feel bad about saying no, because you're saying yes to something else. 

[00:07:15] Julia Hogan: Exactly. And I think it's, you know, kind of back to that boundary language, it's a way of communicating that, whatever that ask is.

[00:07:24] Is not something that you can say yes to right now. It's not within sort of your, you know, I don't know, like your Venn diagrams aren't matching up, right? So that's not in this sort of overlap part what's going on. I think it's important to, like you mentioned that resentment or everything, it's more about that ask or that commitment is not something you can say yes to, and you're not making a judgment on the person or what's important to them, right?

[00:07:50] You're–our paths are not aligning in this moment, right? We can't schedule that meeting, or I can't say yes to volunteering at a school event or something like that. Like I just can't. But you're not saying you're a bad person or how dare you ask me, right? You're just saying no, when you know, and that's that, and you're communicating your limit to the other person.

[00:08:12] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I like that you noted that you were not passing judgment on the ask or the person who is asking. You're just kind of stating a fact about what's authentic to you because I think sometimes I am guilty of worrying that the other person thinks I'm passing judgment on them. When I say no, which probably links back to people pleasing or whatnot, but by thinking reassuring myself that this is not a judgment.

[00:08:39] You're not kind of saying they're not good enough for your time. You're just approving something else that you prioritize more in that moment. 

[00:08:47] Julia Hogan: Exactly, exactly. And I think another thing that's kind of helpful to think about as far as framing it, when you are honest with yourself about what your limits are or what your priorities are, and you're communicating that to someone else, it's sort of being more fair all around, you know, if that's like the most eloquent way of saying that, but it's like saying, Hey, I'm going to lay it all out there for you and be truthful. I don't have time for this, or I wouldn't be able to bring the best version of myself to this meeting now. Or you know what, that's not something I'm passionate about or not a priority.

[00:09:23] So why would I say yes to something like that? Right. Like, it's not fair to myself, but it's also not fair to you, person who's asking me to volunteer because I don't have the time. So if I said yes, you would be getting the you know, resentful, scheduled, stressed out. Yes. You don't want that, right? That's another way I think of just being transparent, right?

[00:09:46] And saying, I'm not going to say yes to something that I can't feel like I can fully commit to. And so I'm going to be fair and I'm going to say no, and that feels very different, right? Then, gosh, I'm going to hurt the other person's feelings or they're going to misunderstand me and think that I actually don't care about their organization or whatever they're working on, right?

[00:10:07] You mentioned perspective shift earlier, and I think that's just another example of how shifting your perspective can be so powerful, especially when it comes to boundaries.

[00:10:21] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: So as you could probably tell from my reactions throughout that conversation, I thought there were several good nuggets of wisdom here to recap the key takeaways. One, boundaries set the tone for how you want to be treated. They're foundational to all healthy relationships, not just when things are tough or are going badly.

[00:10:42] Number two, it's important to know your own boundaries so you can enforce them going forward. Identify what's important to you. Then make decisions in line with those values. That's how you start establishing boundaries. Three, remember you can't do it all and that's okay. Four, no is a yes to whatever you're honoring your no is saying yes to either something you committed to already or something that's more important to you.

[00:11:12] Number five, your response to an ask is not passing judgment on the ask or the person asking. Number six, when you are honest about your limits and priorities, you're being fair to everyone involved. It's about being fair to you and respecting your needs. And also it's not fair to the other person to say yes, if you can't commit or don't want to.

[00:11:37] Something that helps me is to hit pause before saying yes. And to practice saying no, sometimes it's in my head. Sometimes it's out loud in front of the mirror. Also, I think it's important to acknowledge that there'll probably be discomfort, especially if you aren't used to saying no, it's human nature to avoid things that make us uncomfortable.

[00:11:58] So by preparing yourself for that feeling, you'll be more likely to understand it and act authentically in the moment. Rather than acting out of avoidance or a fear of feeling awkward.

[00:12:14] A big thanks to Julia Hogan for her insights and practical tips on how to manage boundaries. Something I will certainly be thinking about and sharing with my daughters. To learn more about Julia, you can visit Julia Marie Hogan dot com. That's Julia Marie, H-O-G-A-N.com or follow her on Instagram at, @juliahoganlpc.

[00:12:42] Those links are in the show notes, along with a link to her previous episode about self-care and authentic leisure. And thanks for listening. I know you get to choose how you spend your time and I'm honored and humbled to share a portion of your day with you. If you found something helpful or insightful, remember to subscribe or follow, tell a friend, and leave a review on Apple Podcasts if you can, as that helps people find the show. Also, you can find me on Instagram @knowberaisethem is the handle. Thanks again for listening and here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.