Post-Divorce Wisdom: What Not to Say & What We'll Teach our Daughters // with Heather McGinley and Laura Koo

[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hello all! And welcome to Know Them Be Them Raise Them, a show to help busy, mindful, and growth-oriented moms stay informed and inspired as they navigate their daughter's tween and teen years with most episodes running 20 minutes or less. I'm your host Carmelita Tiu.

[00:00:17] So this week's episode is part two of a conversation I had with Heather McGinley and Laura Koo. The hosts of Thirsty the Podcast. Heather and Laura are moms who've gone through divorce, like I did. My conversation with them was expansive. And last week in episode 32, I shared part one which covered lessons that we as divorced moms learned about parenting self-care and living authentically. 

[00:00:42] Our conversation went on to cover some stereotypes about divorced women and what not to say or say to them as well as things we'd like to teach our daughters about relationships. Here's part two of our chat.

[00:00:56] Laura Koo: Well, I've been sitting here thinking about the post divorce stereotypes that you might see in the movie where like someone gets divorced and all of a sudden, the man gets a convertible and a toupee, or the woman changes her hair. You know, it's like very big changes and it's kind of something that gets kind of laughed at or made fun of. Like, oh, they're going through a midlife crisis because they just got divorced. And now they're doing all of these things. And I’m like, as we're talking, but that's really what happens when you get divorced, because you do find yourself again, like those people, aren't going through a midlife crisis.

[00:01:26] It's like a re-awakening as like what those pieces were of yourself that were kind of hiding and being able to come to the forefront, like how great is that? But it kind of gets misconstrued that like, oh, they've lost it and they're divorced and they don't know what they're doing.

[00:01:39] And so they're making all these drastic changes. When I think about my life, like my post divorce life–I have a different house, a different car, all different furniture, different hair color. Like my life looks very different from the superficial level, from what it was when I was married. But that's really been my path of finding all of the things that really do make me happy and make me who I am outside of that kind of one note life I was living where I was.

[00:02:06] Went to my job and I was a mom and there was really nothing else to me. I didn't have anything. I didn't know who I was. And now I'm like, well, I am who I was meant to be. And I've had that opportunity to find it. Like, I think that's very exciting and very fun. But if somebody doesn't know me, it's like, oh, she dyed her hair pink and she got a tattoo and she did these things and it's like, well, that's part of my path and my process and I think it's great.

[00:02:27] Heather McGinley: Yeah. I mean, it's like an awakening. It really is. And you lose friends in the proc–I lost some close friends through my post-marriage awakening. Cause they were like, it seems like you're flailing. Because I was talking about going back to school, I was acting different. They were like, who is this person?

[00:02:44] And they took it as I was falling apart, but I wasn't, I was actually waking up and people just may not be used to it. And I think it's so easy to put the negative spin on–failed marriage, you know, they're falling apart midlife crisis. When the reality, I know this was true for me and Laura was true for you and Cat it sounds like it was true for you.

[00:03:05] And a lot of other people, it's an awakening, it's an evolution, it’s actually a positive thing. And just it's different from what people may have seen before when you were in the box. 

[00:03:14] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: This is making me think about, like you were saying, there is this stereotype of divorced people going through some sort of crisis. When in fact, it's like a huge opportunity. It's this chance to think through and rediscover what it is that you want to be and who you want to be, how you want to show up, which sometimes conflicted with, and tell me if you agree, the, very real struggles of being a single parent, you know? 

[00:03:40] So I remember shortly after my split, making sure I told the teachers so they were understanding of what was going on at home, in case it showed up at school, and the way they behaved, or their grades.

[00:03:51] But there was definitely this tone of sympathy, which I appreciate, cause there's difficulty and it's hard being the only parent. At the same time, there's more to that. Like there's the flip side is all that opportunity.

[00:04:06] Yeah, there's more than just the downside. If you had to encourage moms to think about how to support single moms or other women going through divorce, is that one of the things that you would say?

[00:04:17] I think for me that might be like, you know, both giving me the sympathy, but also celebrate with me. What else is there anything else that comes up for you guys?

[00:04:25] Laura Koo: Well, first I was very embarrassed of my divorce and kind of shameful because it was the first life transition I'd had where it wasn't this exciting announcement. Like I worked you know, in an office and, you get engaged and you, show your left hand and you're pregnant and you're like a little nervous to share, but you have a cute little bump and then people are excited for you, you buying a house.

[00:04:45] Like all of these other milestones that I had had that were so easy to share. And I had a really hard time coming to terms with how I talked about this transition in my work life, where people didn't know a lot about my personal life. I had a very supportive boss, so he knew what was going on, which really helped, but it was hard to know how to talk about it.

[00:05:02] So I felt a lot of shame about that. It's taken me a long time to just like very openly be like, whatever, this is my, like, I'm fine with it now. But the I'm sorrys were so hard. Cause do you want to, I would always want to respond back and be like, well, I'm not like on it, like–I was the one who, I mean, I wasn't happy to kick off the divorce process, but I was the one who quote unquote left and made the choices and all this stuff.

[00:05:22] So I'm not sorry, I'm actually ready for this to happen. Get finalized or wherever I was at in the process. But the other thing that I would hear a lot from moms who were married. Um, don't you miss your kids? I would always get that question when they go to your dads, don't you miss them? And I'm like, and it's so, you know, the best way I have–a, don't ever ask anybody that, because that's such a hard thing to hear, but also how I explain it.

[00:05:48] And I'm like, when I have them, it's just me. I am doing all of the things. There are no handoffs. If someone's throwing up, I'm handling that, managing the other kids. Like there is no downtime when you're the only parent in the house. So I have those four or five days or whatever, our stretches, where it is just me doing all of the things, everything. And then when they go to their dads, then I get to decompress and I get to do my things. And I know that they're with their other parent who loves them, but I've had, it's like parenting on steroids when you're the only parent there. It's just so hard to explain that kind of imbalance where it's like, I get plenty of them with, when we’re all together and then they get to go and spend then do other things with their other parent.

[00:06:30] And that's so great too. But that question would always just be like a kick in the stomach. And kind of my other thing too, is if you know someone who is recently divorced or whatever, getting back into dating, ask them about their dating life. Because I feel like I don't get asked about my personal life in the way that I will ask people about their spouses. I think they don't know how to navigate it, but like if I'm dating someone, I want to talk about them and it always can feel a little awkward bringing that into the conversation. And it would be nice to be asked about.

[00:06:58] Heather McGinley: I have a really big reaction to cause you're right, Laura, earlier, when you were saying, well, don't you miss your kids? You know, and something else that I'll see a lot, you know, cause there's a lot of Facebook mom groups and sometimes divorce will come up and without fail there's always at least one person that comments and says, well, I could never give up time with my kids.

[00:07:19] I could never not be with my kids all the time. It is a punch in the gut when I see things like that. And also, I would say I violently disagree with that sentiment. I mean, a big part of me post-divorce as a mom is my brain has expanded. In so many ways, I think often we have this very narrow view of what a good mom is.

[00:07:39] A very narrow view of what girl had, like all these narrow views. And I didn't even know it till now. Me being a good mom is me going for a run. Me being a good mom is going to work and making money to feed my children. There are some–and making myself happy, going to therapy, doing things I need to do to take care of myself.

[00:07:58] That's me being a good mom too. It's not just… It's not only being with your kids, taking them to the playground. Like I think people just have this idea that you're a good mom. And if you're with, you know, it's like the stay at home mom versus working mom thing too. That doesn't mean you're a bad mom and you don't have to be in the room with your kids all the time to be a good mom.

[00:08:21] That's such a narrow view of what motherhood and parenthood is. 

[00:08:24] Laura Koo: Well, there's all this mom guilt, and you don't hear dad guilt in the same way. And I'm going to guarantee you that most dads divorced dads probably don't get asked the questions that we're getting asked. Because dads get called out for being so great for babysitting and things like that, that moms don't get those comments.

[00:08:40] And again, that dads don't get this dad guilt piled on them. The way that we do where you know, I am working full time. And I couldn't pick my kids up at afterschool. They'd go to aftercare, like all of those things. And I would feel so guilty that I wasn't showing up in the way that as mom, I felt like I should cause all the other moms are on the playground.

[00:08:56] And now that I'm home because of the pandemic, I still feel guilty about it, even though I know the reason I wasn't there was because I was working, which I needed to do. And I like showing my kids that I'm a strong working mother and all of those things, but that guilt inside of you of not being able to show up in all the ways that you're expected to is really hard.

[00:09:15] And I think that's where again, with this kind of post divorce life that just gets layered on, in a different way and it hits so hard.

[00:09:23] Heather McGinley: Well, and I think too, I think a good question to ask yourself, especially as a mom, because I, that narrow view again, pushes you into a box, but the way society has send that out with motherhood, are you showing up to your life as your whole self? Are you just showing up? You know, someone that is with their kids all the time, which is so important, but is that your whole self, is that all of it are they showing up authentically?

[00:09:50] And I think that's a good thing to ask yourself because a lot of moms don't have hobbies. They don't go out with their friends and it's just like, are you bringing your whole self to your life? Or you putting yourself in a narrow view of what society tells you, you need to do to be a good mom. 

[00:10:04] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: That question of how could you, or don't you miss your kids, there is no right answer, right? It's an unfair question to ask. And I think that if someone is tempted to ask that or feels that coming up in their head, like you were saying, Heather, maybe ask, where is this really coming from? You know, is this coming from beliefs I inherited from the cultural stereotypes that have been fed to us, antiquated gender roles? You know, are there things that are feeding into this notion of how I'm defining mother that makes me want to ask this question? 

[00:10:36] And Laura, your point about asking about dating. I would imagine some people, like you said, don't want to ask someone, you know, are you dating or have you started dating yet? Just in case it's a sore topic? Unless they will know you well, they might not know if the terms of the divorce were amicable or what led to the separation and the split.

[00:10:57] Do you have thoughts on kind of an appropriate way to approach that? I think asking even in a messy way, even with tons of caveats, like, I don't know if you're dating yet, but if you are, I want to know, would that have been okay?

[00:11:09] Laura Koo: I think so, because I think it just, it opens that door because I feel like it is so hard on the other side of it to like, try and put that to the forefront again, I didn't have anybody locally going through this when I was getting divorced, starting to date again.

[00:11:24] And it was just really lonely because of who do you talk about with, you know, it felt really isolating. But once someone knows. you are, then I feel like the door's open.

[00:11:36] It's so much easier for them to like, again, like ask them the same way that I would ask about your husband. Like once, once you're aware of it, that that is part of my life, then it should be reciprocated in the same way. Like, oh, have you met anybody new? Or how was that going? I didn't really get a lot of those questions and it would have been nice to kind of have that.

[00:11:53] But yeah, I think for the initial it's okay to be a little messy because it's all a little bit messy and quite honestly, I think nine times out of 10, you're either going to get a nope, not ready for that yet, or, oh my gosh. This is so crazy. Like, let me tell you this crazy story.

[00:12:06] Heather McGinley: Yeah. Once you like, in terms of practical advice, I would say too, if you're feeling uncertain, something, that's always a safe question. Hey, so what's going on in your life lately? What have you had going on? What's happening? I want to hear what's up with you because that's the open-ended question that someone can answer however they feel is appropriate. 

[00:12:26] And once in a while I've said those things to people where I felt like things were going on and like, so what's going on with you? What been happening lately? And they'll say, well, what do you want to know? And my answer, I'll just be whatever you want to share. I think that's the root of it expressing that someone else's interested in your life. It's not like, some of my good girlfriends. I mean, you're allowed to do this when you're a best friend, there'll be like, what's the crazy dating story of the week. You know, they'll say things like that, you know, but I know at the root, they care about me. They want to know what's going on in my life.

[00:12:59] As long as that part is bang on, I feel like the rest of it's okay. So you just have to ask and make sure that that's why you're asking.

[00:13:07] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: And I would imagine this, that kind of open-ended question, for any single mom, whether they're close to divorce or not, is probably the right take. Again, I think there might be a tendency to kind of have pity for the single mom, which I definitely felt like there were undertones of pity sometimes when people would ask how I was doing or, you know, try to empathize with my situation.

[00:13:31] And I was like, really, you know, it's more good than bad. So I don't think I need your pity. Um, but asking like, yeah, what's going on. Instead of the, So really how are you? As if my, hey I'm good, was not good enough.

[00:13:45] Laura Koo: Yeah. And on the other side of pity, I think also what I would get some times just kind of the little judgier questions, you know, don't, don't move on too quickly or don't do something too rashly, or don't make these crazy decisions as if like that's my track record and I'm just going to like marry the first person they date after a month, but that's kind of how it would feel.

[00:14:05] I'm sure those comments do come out of caring, a caring place, but sometimes that's hard to hear. Because it's like, I trust myself and what I'm doing and you need to trust me because you're my friend and I've never shown any reason otherwise.

[00:14:18] But I think that drastic difference in life status makes people assume that you're going to just like run off and do something, just, not change your hair color, but like, you know, change your marital status again in a week or something.

[00:14:31] Heather McGinley: Well, I think so, like I it's so important to reframe it. I mean, y'all above touched on this. My life is great. You know, and I think this whole thing of like, oh, you’re a divorcee, oh, you're a single mom. It's like, it's not true. It's not true. My life is so much better now than it was before. I have a good life.

[00:14:50] I'm happy. I have friends. I go out, things are good. Like there's nothing to pity here. I think everyone has good things, bad things. Um, but it all kind of evens out in the end. That's how I feel. 

[00:15:03] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Yeah. I like what, what you said, Laura, and it connects with what Heather was saying, but kind of trust that I am okay. Like, you know, I haven't done anything to make you think that I don't have the ability to make sound decisions. So trust me.

[00:15:19] And also if people are seeing you show up in this way, if they're having negative thoughts or questions or a little bit of an internal discontent, you know, maybe that is a sign that, for someone else, you might be thinking, you're trying to ask me questions out of concern, but really are you looking for something wrong with how I'm living right now to make you feel better about what maybe you're hiding or suppressing or the ways that you're not being fulfilled?

[00:15:46] Heather McGinley: Well, and I really hope we can teach our kids that. Because I think cerebrally, I thought I understood that, oh, I don't have to get married. I don't have to have kids, but I don't think I really took that to heart. I think I still felt like the gold standard is get married, have kids and what I really want to teach my daughters, and I think girls have a harder time with that. I mean, you meet plenty of men that are lifetime bachelors. They have no qualms about it, women not so much. And so I really hope I can impart that to my daughter. That truly, that is not better than any other path you might choose in life. 

[00:16:25] Laura Koo: I'd say bachelor life and spinster life are portrayed very differently. Like bachelors are attractive and they're out living their life and they have a boat and they're doing all these things and spinsters are home and they're alone and they're sad and like, it's such a different viewpoint that I feel like you grow up with, like, you play the game old maid growing up, like that's what–that was your life.

[00:16:46] If you didn't get married, you were going to be the old maid. Like how depressing is that? So I do think it is a very different feel for our daughters and kind of what they want for themselves. And being able to, again, like having a mom and nothing wrong with stay at home moms, but having a mom with a career who's paying the bills and taking care of the house is a great thing for them to look at and to model and to understand.

[00:17:08] And I like showing that to my kids and my girls actually asked a lot of questions. Do you like your job? What do you do for your job? Cause I sit at home on a laptop, so they're trying to understand that, but I love being able to tell her, I love my job. I think my job is so great. This is what I do. And this is how it helps people. And they're really interested in that. And I like that I get to show that to them and that I get to show that I do these things on my own and sometimes maybe I'm crying and that's okay because we're getting through it and we're doing it still. 

[00:17:38] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: What I'm hearing and loving are so many kind of general relationship lessons that I wish I had learned, and that, you know, all moms can aspire to teach their kids. 

[00:17:48] So, redefining what successful relationships look like, normalizing singlehood for women as a choice, and how it can be wonderful and making sure to model those independent thoughts and decision-making skills, even if you're married so that if your daughter chooses not to be in a relationship, then, she can see what it looks like to make those financial decisions, to take on things on our own and it's not scary and it's not foreign and it's not something that she sees as inferior because she's not doing it with someone else.

[00:18:25] Heather McGinley: Yeah. It's hard. Cause I feel like the message of the gold standard is so powerful and pervasive. It's taken me 43 years to learn, to let that go. It's so powerful. So as a big challenge as a mom, to try to offer an expanded worldview beyond that. 

[00:18:45] Laura Koo: And I think it's also this idea that I think about a lot is I think about what I, you know, if I partnered up again and, you know, within the same household or whatever my path is, but I always want to have it be a want and not a need. And so I think raising again, your kids with that idea that like, you can take care of yourself, you can do all of those things.

[00:19:05] You don't need to be with anybody. And the person that you end up with should be somebody that you want. Not that you need anything from them. Like I can sustain my household, I can take care of what I need to do, I can fix things, I can pay for things, I can do what I need. I don't need a man to come marry me so that I can share.

[00:19:26] I mean, I'd love to share my mortgage payment, but that's very attractive to me, but, I don't, I don't need it. I'm not floundering and waiting for this man to come in and save me. And I liked that my kids won't see that for me, if I get married again. It's not because we needed someone to come in because we're going to lose the house or, you know, something's going to happen.

[00:19:46] Like, because I have met someone and I can model a great relationship to my kids. And that is what they can see from that. And that it was a want, and not that I needed to meet someone ASAP or we were going to be in trouble and they can grow up to do that for themselves.

[00:20:03] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: So something that came up with me, Laura, while you were talking was, wanting more from life, your podcast is a lot about wanting more. Is that that's your tag line? Is that right?

[00:20:13] Laura Koo: Yeah. Yep. It is. So yeah, our podcast is called Thirsty and Heather and I sip on a lot of names for it, trying to decide what to call it. And we kind of landed on the idea of thirsty, which can kind of have some salacious undertones to it. But we really were thinking about it from the angle of, you know, sometimes life leaves you wanting more and that's kind of what that journey is for us.

[00:20:33] So we share a lot of. Sometimes hilarious dating stories. Sometimes some like mushy gushy, good relationships that we've had and layer in some things about post-divorce life and again, it really is that idea of just wanting more for yourself and that there's so much more out there for you.

[00:20:50] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: I love it. You know, I'd like to end my episodes with affirmations or thoughts or quotes that you might want to impart to the listeners as the last thing they hear. So do either of you or both of you have something you might want to share?

[00:21:06] Heather McGinley: Two things, two things. A quote from, this book Untamed by Glennon Doyle, there's so many aha moments in it. So she left her marriage, there issues there, but she also met a woman who is now her wife and she realized that was who she really was. And that she'd been living life, in a way that was not authentic. 

[00:21:28] And so she shared a story about how she was taking a bath one day and she was thinking about like, oh, what if I were to like, leave my marriage and be in a relationship with a woman because she was starting to realize that she was not straight and, she said that when she was thinking about this other life, the unlived life, that life that is different from your reality, but in your mind, you're like, I would love to go do that. And a lot of times we say things like in another life, maybe that would be true.

[00:21:57] Glennon Doyle at the end of sharing the story. She said, how funny that we say in another life as if we had more than one. 

[00:22:04] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Hm.

[00:22:05] Heather McGinley: You know, and that hit me so hard. And it was actually a moment. I was like, I have to get a divorce. This is not working. I'm not who I am. I'm not living authentically. And I get one life, one life.

[00:22:17] And that's real. It is real. You get one life, um, and you're in charge of what happens. 

[00:22:22] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Love both of those. Laura, was there anything you wanted to add? 

[00:22:26] Laura Koo: Yeah, I think, I think about that a lot too, just of what I want for myself and that idea that, this is kind of my not do over, but it's that next step and it's exciting. And I think that is the most important thing. Like it, isn't sad, it's exciting and empowering and wonderful.

[00:22:41] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I am so grateful for Heather and Laura sharing their insights and wisdom with me. Here are some of my key takeaways from this one. 

[00:22:52] Number one, avoid saying I'm sorry. Saying just I'm sorry. Convey sympathy for a loss, but also fails to acknowledge any gains and in many divorces the gains outweigh the losses. I know you've been going through a difficult time. Or that must have been hard, can be supportive alternatives. 

[00:23:11] Number two, please don't ask don't you miss your kids? I could never not be with my kids all the time. A mom being asked this can feel like she's being judged. If she says, yes, she's pitiful and pathetic. Or if she says no, is she bitter and uncaring? So it's best not to ask this at all. 

[00:23:29] Number three, if you've been asked about your partner, you can also gently ask a divorced mom about their romantic lives, not in a nosy way, but from a place of caring. It might feel awkward and messy at first, but if it's coming from a genuinely good place, that won't matter, it's more important that she knows you care. 

[00:23:47] Number four. Check your assumptions and biases about divorced women and single moms. While their experience is different and can be difficult in ways only they can understand. It doesn't mean that they are worse off or that their situation is a sad one. 

[00:24:01] Number five, here are some things that we're thinking about when raising our daughters that we might not have learned if not for our divorces. We want to redefine what successful relationships look like, normalize being single as an equally valid lifestyle or choice and model independence and self-sufficiency. So important. 

[00:24:22] To learn more about Heather, Laura, and Thirsty the Podcast. You can visit thirstythepodcast.com and follow them on Instagram @thirstythepodcast.

[00:24:32] Those links are in the show notes. So check them out. 

[00:24:35] Remember, you have to take action to be something. And by listening you're doing the work and showing that you are a strong growth-oriented woman and mom. 

[00:24:45] So high five to you. Don't forget to follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram and Facebook and if you found something helpful or insightful, please subscribe or follow and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 

[00:24:58] Thank you so much for listening. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.