Post-Divorce Wisdom: Lessons All Moms Can Learn // with Heather McGinley and Laura Koo

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[00:00:02] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them, a show to help moms stand formed and inspired so they can show up for themselves and their daughters the way they want to. I'm your host Carmelita Tiu. Join me each week as I cover a variety of topics, all designed to support mindful and growth-oriented moms of girls, especially girls in their crucial tween and teen years. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe, tell a friend and follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram and Facebook. 

[00:00:32] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: So I was recently invited by Laura Koo and Heather McGinley to be a guest on Thirsty the Podcast. Laura and Heather are moms who've gone through divorce like me, and they set out to create a show about life, love, and a second chance. In addition to sharing their best and worst dating stories, they take a frank look at the ups and downs of life, post divorce with a large dose of humor and wit as evidenced by their bios. 

[00:01:00] Laura is an introvert who hates the sound of her own voice. So podcasting seemed like the most natural endeavor. As a mother of three and ex-wife of one and an ex-girlfriend of a few, Laura feels like she is perfectly positioned to dole out sometimes insightful, but almost always entertaining advice on dating after divorce, navigating our swipe-a-holic dating culture, and how to laugh at yourself after going on train wreck dates that you probably should have avoided. 

[00:01:28] With the handful of minutes left each week after working, parenting, dating, and podcasting, Laura likes to bake fancy things, build furniture and binge watch the very worst reality TV. 

[00:01:40] Heather is a writer and standup comic, who does everything wrong. Known as a cool mom and mediocre triathlete, she works out daily, reads a ton, and is generally always learning something new. 

[00:01:52] When it comes to dating, Heather is a newbie after 15 years spent in back-to-back relationships. You're never too old to learn new things or something like that. A global pandemic seemed like the perfect time to re-enter the dating pool. Heather is a two-time Emmy-winning storyteller, but honestly they give those things out like candy. She also writes on her personal site where she is currently accepting applications for her next ex-boyfriend. 

[00:02:18] So fun, right? Well, and talking at length with them, I realized how the lessons we learned from our divorces and life post-divorce, could actually be helpful and insightful to all moms, and I was eager to share these perspectives with you. 

[00:02:32] We had a runaway conversation. So this episode is a bit longer. There's actually a part two next week. But I think you'll find it's worth the extra time investment. Here's our chat. 

[00:02:44] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Well, Laura and Heather, thank you so much for joining me today. I really had a blast talking with you on your podcast, and through our discussions, I realized that you both have so many insights that I think any mom, especially moms of girls could benefit from. So I'm grateful that you agreed to come on my show. 

[00:03:04] Laura Koo and Heather McGinley: We’re so excited to be here. Thank you. We had a lot of fun. 

[00:03:09] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Well, as you know, most of my listeners are moms of girls and something that I touch on a lot is this idea that we are role models for our daughters, whether we want to be or not. On that note, I really feel like divorce was one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do.

[00:03:26] So I guess, what's something that you found particularly challenging through this process? And how did you think about how you're showing up for your kids during that really hard time or those really hard moments?

[00:03:40] Laura Koo: Yeah, I think for me, like one of the big things I realized was. Taking over the household meant like not only managing the kids, but managing the house on my own and all of those other things that you're used to having a partner for. And I feel like that's where I continue to struggle because I liked being the one to manage all of those things, but it's hard being the only person do it.

[00:04:02] And I think my kids have seen me be really real. I'll cry in front of them over things when it's stressful. If I have a house emergency or something, I've had a lot of house emergencies, that's been part of my post divorce journey, is a lot of stuff related to my home–I've had to handle on my own.

[00:04:17] That's been just really, really stressful. And I don't want to hide that from my kids, because I think it's important for them to understand that, like I am trying to do all of these things and wear all of these hats and do a lot to like give them a real, what I think is a really nice life, but it's not easy.

[00:04:33] And I think kids–it's helpful for them to understand all of the work in general that parents put into giving them the life that we want for them. But especially when you go to that transition of being a one parent household and just how much work that is. I had a day this winter where my snow service didn't come and I was shoveling six inches of snow and like crying in the driveway while I'm doing it.

[00:04:55] Because I don't like it. I'm like, why is this my life? I hate this so much. Like, yes, I can do it. Do I want to? No. And I came in and I was upset and whatever, and like my kids, they learned to kind of rally around you and support you in a way that I think is really special and important. And I think it's important for them to see those weaknesses.

[00:05:12] So that's kind of what I've learned along the way of like, I don't need to hide those pieces of things cause that's real. And that's part of our life and that's important for them to know.

[00:05:22] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: I love that idea of letting your kids see the difficulty and the struggles too, because when you have a co-parent, I think those can be easily shifted and masked between the two of you.

[00:05:34] Maybe one of you takes care of something. The other person puts on a happy face for the kids and that's not an option anymore.

[00:05:41] Laura Koo: Yeah. I used to be the one making the hot chocolate for the kids while someone else was out dealing with the snow. And now I'm bundling up and dealing with the snow is very different. So I think it is because they don't see those things. I think when there are two adults in the house, for sure.

[00:05:54] Heather McGinley: And I think mine was a little bit almost  internal, I think probably in contrast to what you're talking about Laura. Cause I would say mine was all like mental and emotional healing, because my marriage was really hard on me. It did a lot of damage to me, as a person in the mental health department.

[00:06:16] And so, so my divorce was just finalized yesterday. Like I'm so fresh. It was a two year process over the last two years. What I really found is that my relationship with my kids got better because I was in such a bad place when I was married that I don't think I was capable of being the mom I wanted to be because I was just like fighting to get through every day in an okay manner.

[00:06:42] So I didn't have enough for my kids and now I do! Like the last two years, a bit of a journey of healing myself, confronting all these things that I never did before, you know, really trying to heal, trying to evolve, trying to recover. And I'm so much happier now. Not that every day is perfect, but I've seen a major shift, a major change in my relationship with my kids.

[00:07:05] It's so much better or so funny. Like you would think, I would say something like our life is so much worse after divorce, but it's not, it's not. I'm a much better mom, but I think for me, I was just carrying such a big mental load that then was removed after divorce. 

[00:07:23] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: That's such a learning. I think that we all kind of struggle with is that realization that when you as a mom are able to show up from a happy place and a healthy place that ultimately it impacts and influences all of your relationships.  You just made the point of how you were able to heal and grow and become a healthier version of yourself through this process. And it's actually benefited.

[00:07:49] Like you said, it's probably not what people expect, but if your goal is to have a wonderful relationship with your kids, you have to come from a healthy place too.

[00:07:57] Heather McGinley: Yeah. I mean, I will say that is a big reason why I got divorced at all. Cause I could see it. I wasn't like, I know what I want to be as a mom and as a parent and I wasn't able to. You know, for better or worse, I feel like more than anything else, I don't want to fail as a mom. Like maybe I might fail as a wife or a partner, which I don't want to do that either, but I will just be honest and say, that's my number one. I don't want to fail as a mom. And I felt like I was not being the mom I wanted to be. 

[00:08:25] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Hm.

[00:08:26] Heather McGinley: And so that was actually a big trigger for me getting divorced. 

[00:08:29] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Yeah. You know, I, that ties in a little bit to Laura. You're mentioning how you were able to show your emotions and make sure that your kids, um, understood the role of a parent, all the ups and downs. You know, it's something I definitely still struggle with to this day is, how much of that do I let my kids see?

[00:08:49] And how do I make sure it's presented in a way that they have empathy and don't feel like they need to take care of me. Have you struggled with that? Like the nuanced communications?

[00:09:02] Laura Koo: Yeah, I think my kids, you know, it, again, it is a balance, like obviously they don't see or understand everything that I'm going through, but again, those things that are very tangible for them to understand, like a lot of the emotional struggles are like, I'm so sad. I don't have a partner.

[00:09:16] You know those times of things, obviously, that's all for me, but you know, the things around the house or the kind of extra things that I feel like I'm shouldering that they can understand, I think it's just so helpful for them to like really grasp, what it is I'm trying to do for them.

[00:09:31] And I think in general, like kids tend to, underappreciate like everything that they have around them and probably that's an age thing and they're not there to understand it, but I think it is important for them to kind of get those little pieces of, you know, mom works really hard to do the dishes or keep the house clean or whatever, like they need to understand that.

[00:09:51] And it kind of has helped in a way where I have one of my seven year olds is a very helpful kid and she knows I hate to fold laundry and she likes to be paid for it. But often mom doesn't have cash. Um, social media, do you have it? She'll be like, do you have a dollar? And asking if I have a dollar is if you have a dollar, I'll fold the laundry.

[00:10:08] But one day she just went and folded the laundry and put it all away. And she said, I know you don't like to do it. And so I did that for you. She's seven, and part of the add is like them understanding that, like I'm trying to do all of these things and I'm going to be more vocal about it because it's hard.

[00:10:24] It is hard doing all of the things and running a household. And I got them a dog. And so I'm taking care of the dog, but I got them and you know, there's a lot going on here. So for them to kind of self, be self-aware enough to pick out the things they can do to be helpful, I think is amazing. And I feel proud that some of my, you know, tough moments have probably created those opportunities for them to understand how they can step up and be helpful because that's important for them too.

[00:10:51] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: That's fantastic. 

[00:10:53] Heather McGinley: Yeah, we, something that I've been doing that I've found works really well with my kids is because to y'all's point, like things happen in life that maybe it's too much to really go into detail with your kids about, you know, cause you don't want to put stress on them, but I've certainly had some of those things happen in my life over the last couple of years, things that happen in my personal life that were really upsetting to me, not appropriate to share with the kids, but they could see I was upset.

[00:11:19] And one thing that we found is a good way to handle that, so that we're being honest, how we feel and learning how to manage your emotions is all just how I’ll just tell them. Yeah. I'm feeling really sad right now.

[00:11:29] And that's kind of opened the door for us to talk about feelings and what to do when someone's sad, you know? So now they'll be like, do you need a hug? Um, and I feel like that has worked out well, cause I don't think they feel any pressure to fix it, you know, but more like how to be supportive of someone you care about. 

[00:11:47] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Hm. Hm. Two things, Heather, what you were saying about. Giving your kids the opportunity to show up for you without trying to fix something is a really great lesson in it because I know I'm a fixer, you know, and I, I think sometimes my tendency to want to fix might be bleeding into how my daughters think they should approach problems and big feelings.

[00:12:08] So how wonderful that your kids are having this opportunity to really just, see what it's like and play it out of just being there. No need to fix no need to problem solve, but holding that space for, for someone else's emotions. That's a really powerful lesson. And Laura, something that came up for me when you were talking was not, was, you know, in sharing your problems and your kids learning these difficulties.

[00:12:34] In addition to being empathetic, they're also gaining agency. It's not just, oh, I feel sorry. I understand what mommy's going through, but there's also this element of, I can do something to help change the situation, which is a step that I love that you called out. Cause I, I can think of a few instances of that in my own life and it's definitely a good reason for kids to see all you do as a mom and, you know, the ups and downs to both give them that awareness, but also they will hopefully see how they can be part of the solution.

[00:13:09] Just two big light bulb moments there for me. Um, so, you know, we've all had time to think about our quote, unquote failed marriages. Right? Which, I don't know about you guys, but the first time I heard someone refer to my marriage, as that, it felt almost like an insult. Even though I know it was true.

[00:13:29] I just didn't like being called a failure at anything. And I, I started to personalize it initially. But then I did, you know, I was able to kind of work through that and look back at some of the things I was able to learn through that experience. 

[00:13:44] And so in some ways I think, as long as you're learning, it's not necessarily a negative, like there might be hard times, but if you grow, growth is good. So I'm curious, what would you say were some of your biggest learnings from, um, the divorce process?

[00:14:01] This "gift of divorce" I know we talked about on one of your episodes.

[00:14:05] Heather McGinley: Oh boy. I feel like, I mean, to be honest, I feel more myself now than I have in a long time. Yeah, because I agree with you. Like, I don't believe that the term failed marriage. I mean, technically I guess it's true, but I also, I have changed my mind about relationships. I used to think, like if with someone and you're with them forever then that's true love, and I really don't feel that way anymore.

[00:14:32] And I think that's something I learned post divorce is that you meet people and you're in each other's lives for hopefully what is the correct amount of time. And I think with marriages, I know I went in not understanding that at all. Um, and that sometimes you reach the end with someone and that's it.

[00:14:50] And that doesn't mean it was a failure. It means you are at the end of your relationship and it's time to move on. Of course that means maybe now I'm not sure I would ever get married again, you know, cause I kind of, but I think that was the big thing that, that was how I saw it. 

[00:15:05] Um, and my big, I think aha moment through the divorce process has been taking care of myself. And like making sure that I am here as a person that had agency is a person that my personality is here, that my desires are alive. That who I am is out there authentically. Um, and that was something I really lost in my marriage, ideally in the right relationship all those things are still there. Um, but I just realized more and more how much I wasn't present in my marriage. Like I just went into a box, you know, and now I'm starting to come out.

[00:15:43] Laura Koo: Yeah, I definitely learned to be, I've learned over time to be a better communicator. I was not a good communicator in my marriage. Um, that was one. When we think of, when a marriage ends, I think everybody has their piece and like kind of how it came to the end point. And I know my pieces, I think one of mine was definitely, I wasn't open.

[00:16:03] I wasn't ready to communicate or dig into feelings or any of those things. And so I've learned a lot over the past few years. I didn't go to therapy until my marriage was ending and I've learned so much from that process. Like that has been amazing for me. And I don't know why I didn't do it sooner because that would have helped me along that journey of when I was really struggling in my marriage, where I would have had an outlet that wasn't my friends, because that was always really hard.

[00:16:27] So having a therapist would have been really helpful for many of those years, but I definitely, again, I've learned to communicate, I've learned to be more open and share in relationships of what I want, what I'm okay with, what I'm not okay with. Like Heather said, understanding the amount of time to be with someone. Like, I know more about what I want and what I need and what I'm going to, you know, what I won't put up with isn't the right way to say it. But like, I understand like what my boundaries are, I guess is a better way to put it. So, you know, I've done a lot of thinking about who I am in relationships.

[00:17:01] I've met my ex-husband when I was so young that I didn't know anything about relationships. I didn't learn a lot of those relationship skills I've been learning for the first time.

[00:17:10] All of those important things that you need to have in order to be a good partner and to attract a good partner. 

[00:17:15] And then I think as Heather said, as well, self-care is huge. Um, I didn't have any self-care when I was married because I was either working or home with three small kids. And now I have the time to take care of myself, find my interests, exercise, all of those things, um, lean into friendships. 

[00:17:34] I want to make sure I'm the friend who can step up and be there. Because for a lot of years, I couldn't. And now I have that opportunity to really be that friend that I would want to be. And so that's what I'm trying to remind myself of. Like, this is your opportunity to be all of these different things that you couldn't do five years ago because my life wasn't my own during that time. And now it's much more balanced.

[00:17:59] Heather McGinley: You're just making me think Laura, about you know, showing up authentically, I know that's a journey, both, uh, and we've been on, you know, in this post-divorce life. It's something that I think has really shown up in that department for me, is learning when to let someone go, like we focus a lot on putting the right people in your life, meeting someone special.

[00:18:20] I mean, that could be friendships, and family, it doesn't have to just be in a dating situation. But what, I don't think we're like, we're really focused on finding those people, but I don't think we're very good at, or I'm not, letting them go. And I think sometimes hanging on to a friend, a family member, a date, a romantic relationship can do so much damage.

[00:18:41] I remember there was, um, around the time I left my marriage, I read a book called Untamed by Glennon Doyle. And she had a passage in there. She, a lot of that was about her divorce and showing up authentically in your life. I highly recommend it if anyone is going through that season, but she said something in there about, I will never allow myself to be in a situation where I feel uncomfortable or like I'm not myself again. And I've really taken that to heart. And I really think about that. Um, I don't know. And I think once you have a partnership, a friendship, a family relationship with someone where you feel put into a box, like that was how I felt as mentioned earlier. I mean, it's, it's time to let it go. Um, and that's not something I've been very good at in the past.

[00:19:28] I'm still not great at it as anyone who has listened to Laura's and my podcast knows I tend to hang on to dates, hang on to family, hang on to friends far longer than I should, but I'm getting better at it. And I think that's something that's good for anyone to think about. When is it time to let someone go. 

[00:19:46] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Hmm, I love that you touched on that. I actually had a girl's friendship expert author come on. And one of her key learnings in the book is as you help your daughters navigate those ups and downs of girl friendships, especially through those tween and teen years, was really reiterating to your kids that friendships have a season.

[00:20:09] They may come back. They may not, but normalizing that coming and going, normalizing the end of friendships is part of just helping everyone cope as life has phases, and we move on. Uh, so to your point, Heather, that's huge. 

[00:20:26] And one thing I felt resonated with me, as you were talking about, being in a box in your marriage, and then also talking about wanting to make sure you show up authentically, that can mean that you're changing.

[00:20:38] Like, it could mean that you've evolved and the other person can't, or won't evolve and accept you in your new form. 

[00:20:46] Uh, in some ways there's always a little bit of push and pull and cause I also agree with some of what you were talking about earlier where I didn't feel like I was fully able to be myself. I don't even think I recognized it, but in my previous marriage, I felt like I was doing a lot of what I thought I should do. And so maybe, um, when I started to articulate more of who I was that had been buried for so long, that contributed to some of the dissonance in our relationship.

[00:21:19] Um, and I'm not trying to blame myself, but more of an encouragement to show up as authentically as possible from the get-go in a relationship. Because if you push that down and someone buys into this version of you, that doesn't fit who you really are, when your real self tries to come to the surface, it creates those painful moments of reckoning.

[00:21:41] Heather McGinley: Well, and you're making me, I think I'm having an aha moment right now too, because I mean, what a gift for us to be able to teach our kids, to be able to let people go. Let them go if it's not working anymore. And I think a lot of times when we talk about relationships, you hear people use the word compromise a lot.

[00:22:01] You know, like whenever people talk about, especially long-term partnerships, long-term relationships, well, you've got to learn to compromise because you're never going to be fully yourself. Um, I've started to use the word collaborate. Like I don't know that I should compromise who I am to be in a relationship, but I think collaborate. Yeah, like you can't be with someone and not work with them to find common ground, but I don't know that compromise is the thing that we should be doing.

[00:22:30] Laura Koo: Well, and again, I don't think you're compromising in the, or you shouldn't be in the other relationships in your life. We think about modeling good relationships for our kids. And I think about how now I can model like being a good friend of my kids. Where a few years ago, again, I didn't really, they didn't see me around a lot of my friends because that wasn't really happening or wasn't, and now they joke all the time about how I always see Heather.

[00:22:49] And it's like a big thing, but like they see that important friendship in my life and how I value it and how I treat it and all those things. But I'm not compromising, you know, we don't compromise who we are with our good friends. And why would we do that in a relationship like that should in theory work the same way.

[00:23:04] Like I'm not going to change myself for one of my girlfriends. I'm not going to change myself or someone that I'm dating either.

[00:23:10] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Hmm. Well, I love that collaborate word too. You know, compromise does sound like everybody has to give something up, whereas collaborate, maybe you're both showing up as yourselves, but you're just finding ways for that to work, in an optimal way. For some reason, when you're talking about friendships, for instance, and being able to see your friends more and be there for them.

[00:23:32] It reminded me of some of the families I knew growing up where the dad would always have his bowling nights or you know, maybe the mom always had a day that she could go hang out and do bridge, or these are very stereotypical, like seventies, examples I'm using.

[00:23:50] And it, I guess, in some ways I'm rethinking how I used to judge those. I used to think as a kid, don't they want to just always be a family together?

[00:23:59] Um, but not knowing then what we know now, which is, there are other ways to show up besides being in your role as a family member. And I'm just kind of realizing that, um, that knowledge and letting your kids see that is important. 

[00:24:14] So Bravo to both of you for kind of nurturing that in yourselves and giving your kids that example. 

[00:24:21] Heather McGinley: Well, and you're making me think about to something that is something I've learned post divorce. Um, Lauren and I have talked about this a little bit. There's an author named Eckhart Tolle. Which many people might be familiar with him, but he talks about this, about how people confuse role with identity.

[00:24:39] Like they will take on the role they play in life and take that on is that's who I am. And what he has to say about it is that’s not–you are a full body, 360 person and you play different roles. And it's not just one thing. And a lot of moms. I mean, I'll speak for myself for a long time.

[00:24:56] I felt like that was my whole identity. And I paid no attention to everything else. And it's something I learned post divorce, actually, my first relationship post divorce. He also had a hard time seeing me as anything other than a mom. And it made me realize, I think I see myself that way as well. I have so many other things that I care about myself as a friend, as a girlfriend, as someone who has hobbies, I love other, like, there are so many other things out there and I think sometimes we can confuse a role you play role, not the role, a role you play with who you are as in terms of your identity. And I think it's really important to make sure you understand the difference there. That mom is not your whole self. It's not. You're a person who is a mom. 

[00:25:42] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: This conversation was so good. We kept talking and talking. So as I mentioned before, part two of our conversation will be covered in a separate episode. But here are some of my key takeaways from this one. 

[00:25:58] Number one, it's helpful for kids to have a sense for the work that parents put into giving them the life that they have. Share the struggles of your life in an appropriate way, so they can learn to rally around you and support you. Tough moments can create opportunities for them to step up and be helpful. 

[00:26:15] Number two, sometimes divorce allows someone to be a better parent. It may seem counterintuitive, but a toxic relationship can suck up an outsized amount of energy. When you as a mom are able to come from a happy and healthy place. That positively impacts all of your relationships. Including the one with your kids. 

[00:26:34] Number three, let your kids see your emotions. It can open the door to talk about big feelings and help them learn how to be supportive and hold space for emotions without trying to fix things. 

[00:26:46] Number four, normalize the idea that relationships have seasons and phases just like friendships and may not last forever. For many, the exception to that would be marriage. But this idea shifts the perspective on every other relationship leading up to or after a marriage. Instead of being seen as a failed attempt, it can be acknowledged for its value. Help them understand when and how to let go in a healthy way. 

[00:27:14] Number five, teach your daughters that in a healthy relationship, their desires are present. They can show up authentically as themselves. They can communicate openly and their boundaries are respected. 

[00:27:27] And number six, remember that we are not merely the roles we play. We are complex creatures and the role of mom is just one part of ourselves. 

[00:27:38] To learn more about Heather, Laura and Thirsty the Podcast. You can visit thirstythepodcast.com and follow them on Instagram @Thirstythepodcast. Even if you aren't a divorced or single mom, their episodes are full of warmth and insights and are so enjoyable. 

[00:27:55] Those links are in the show notes. So check them out. 

[00:27:59] Remember, you have to take action to be something. And by listening you're doing the work and showing that you are a strong growth-oriented woman and mom. 

[00:28:08] So high five to you. Don't forget to follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram and Facebook and if you found something helpful or insightful, please subscribe or follow and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 

[00:28:22] Thank you so much for listening. And here's to strong women, may we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.