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What do you do if your daughter shares that she’s been sexually assaulted? Do you know how you would react? Do you know if your reaction would truly help or hinder your child?
In this powerful episode, Claire Horner and Dr. SaDohl Jones of RESET: Trauma Unstuck, share their thoughts on prevention, response, and support. Listen to hear:
Claire and Dr. SaDohl (suh-doll), are two sexual trauma specialists in Atlanta, Georgia. To heal their own trauma while helping others do the same, they have dedicated their professional and personal lives to healing. They have over 39 years of combined sexual trauma recovery experience, both in the therapist chair and on the couch as clients.
Their channel and business is called “RESET: Trauma Unstuck” and they launched “The FOF or Freak Out FREE Podcast on Valentines Day where they match survivors, helpers, and allies with resources for sexual trauma healing to increase confidence and handle life…The Freak Out Free Way.”
Connect with RESET Trauma Unstuck, Dr. Sadohl and Claire:
And check out The F O F Podcast – you’ll find expert resources for sexual trauma healing to increase your confidence and handle life…The Freak Out FREE Way. https://www.podpage.com/freak-out-free-with-claire-dr-sadohl/
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About the Host, Carmelita Tiu
Mom, partner, life coach, podcaster, wordsmith, legal eagle. Endlessly curious about how we can show up better for ourselves – because when we do that, we also show up better for our kids and those around us. Head to carmelitatiu.com to connect and learn more.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
there's something to be said about the sharing of this experience and the courage that that takes for that to be verbalized. It's also something that they may be afraid that if everyone knows how are they gonna look at me? It took me everything I had to tell you. And if I think everybody else in the family knows, oh God, I'll die.
undefined:
Welcome to know them. Be them, raise them. Uh, show to help moms stand formed and inspired. So they can show up for themselves and their daughters the way they want to. I'm your host Carmelita two. Before I head into today's episode, I do want to mention that my guests and I talk about sexual assault from an educational perspective. There's no graphic stories, but we do discuss how to react to and support survivors of sexual assault. For some, this might be difficult or you may choose not to listen to this around young children. I encourage everyone to assess their situations, take care of themselves. And if you need additional resources, head to rainn.org, that's R a I N n.org. Or check the show notes for links. So this is a podcast first for me, as you likely know, I try to keep my episodes around the 20 to 25 minute mark to make them easy to finish on your commute, a lunch break, et cetera. But when I went to edit this 40 ish minute interview and try to break it into two episodes. I found it was so powerful that I couldn't break it up. One of my goals for this podcast is really to give moms and parents the insights and skills to navigate the tough topics. And sexual assault certainly falls into this category. My guests today do a masterful job of sharing in a compassionate and informed way. Claire and Dr. Sedol, our two sexual trauma specialists. In Atlanta, Georgia. To heal their own trauma while helping others do the same. They've dedicated their professional and personal lives to healing. They have over 39 years of combined sexual trauma recovery experience. Both in the therapist chair and on the couch as clients. Their channel and business is called RESET: Trauma Unstuck. And they launched the FOF or freak out free podcast on Valentine's day of this year. Where they match survivors, helpers and allies with resources for sexual trauma healing to increase confidence and handle life the freakout freeway. We talked in depth about what to do, if your child or anyone really shares with you that they've been sexually assaulted or have experienced sexual trauma. How to respond, how to process and provide support. As I noted earlier, it's a really powerful conversation. It just flowed and every second felt so insightful. So I didn't edit it down. Um, but I'm sure you will find it as captivating as and compelling as I did. Here's our conversation.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Claire, and Sadohl, I am thrilled to have you here because I know your expertise and wisdom will provide guidance for a lot of the listeners. So thank you for being here with me.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Thank you for having us. Thank you very much.
Claire Horner:
Absolut.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
So I, I think I'd like to dive in with kind of a question. Reactions, you know, what are some reactions we can anticipate and prepare for when we learn of someone's sexual assault or when someone decides to share their story of sexual assault with, um, with anyone.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
This is a conversation that Claire and I have had before, kind of like that space of when someone does share with you their experience, um, What's the reaction? What's an authentic reaction and what's the best reaction for the person sharing? And so I think when you look at, the parental relationship, the initial reaction is probably not the reaction that's going to benefit the person that's sharing, right? Because initially our first reaction is to be protective. Our first reaction may be to be in denial. Our first reaction may be disbelief that this is actually happening and. Um, Claire and I are liking this to this space of grief of like the first two reactions are usually not the best ones. Um, and they're not the ones that we're gonna sit with the longest. Um, and so when it comes to being a parent, as a parent, I think the best thing to do is to not react as much as possible initially and allow the person, allow the child, the son, the daughter, the other person on the other end to continue to.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Okay.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Because there's something about being able to have the voice initially to say it out loud. And usually the, the person's looking to see how you're going to react.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
That lets them know if they want to continue this conversation and continue the sharing and continue this space of vulnerability. And so my initial, recommendation is to not react. at first.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
you may have an internal reaction, but don't have a verbal reaction. Don't have an outward, um, reaction initially because, that reaction. To deter them from continuing to talk. Cuz again, as parents, we wanna protect. So I would imagine initially you want to go after the person, you want to start asking questions when, why, how, what you wanna do all those different things. But those are the things that can really shut someone down. Um, that space of feeling interrogated, that space of feeling blamed, even if it's unintentional. And so, first, um, thought would be to allow that person to continue speaking so that you can find out what you need to find out so that you can encourage them to u continue to use their voice to express what's going on with them, and then create a safe space with you creating that and cultivating that relationship of a safe space. Um, and with kids, we know that oftentimes if they don't feel like they can speak to you about one thing, then they're probably not gonna speak to you about the next thing, right? They're not gonna go into more detail. And also, just from experience as a therapist and as a parent, what I hear first is usually not the whole story, right? There's usually much more to come after that. And so I wanna leave that door open. For my son and my daughter to continue to have that conversation with me,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yes.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
and continue to share piece by piece. Cuz a lot of times it's not all together that, that they're going to share, they're gonna share a little bit X, y, and Z happen. And then they're gonna see what your reaction is and then they're gonna share a little bit more. And so you want to leave that door open for them. And so that would be my initial, my initial response. Um, and then I'll let Claire responder add to that. But that's kind of. I think we wanna go, we want to, you know, don't react verbally, don't react outwardly, initially, allow the person to continue, allow the child to continue to speak. Um, but you wanna, of course, creating that nurturing space, but you want them to continue to talk. Don't ask a bunch of questions, that's not necessary. Um, and, and also, yeah, a ask that stuff later and also do a self-check. Do a self check on you. Like control your, control, your own stuff. It's like, I like to say, control how you're feeling on the inside. Control that initial, you know, mama bear, Papa Bear reaction to what you're hearing.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
and go into that space of nurturing and listening. Active listening, we'd like to say right in a therapy space and of active listening.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
yeah. I just have to say that I. This is a, a, a light bulb moment cuz I, I, I do think that we as parents, and, and I know it myself and I know I've seen it in my parents, tend to react instinctively, oftentimes in the best way we know how, which might be what we've seen in the media or what we've seen from parents who don't have the best emotional regulation. But it's what we know and I, I could see myself very much reacting from that interrogatory. Angry place because I think that's how I should be reacting. so introducing this idea of kind of hit pause on that because that's not what's gonna serve your child in the best way is, is really kind of a wonderful take on it cuz you know what's best for us or what we think is best for us in the moment might not actually be what's best for the communication and the dialogue and the relationship with your child.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah.
Claire Horner:
if you can take that deep breath and swallow all those feelings for the moment, just hit the pause button. You don't have to hold them forever, but hold them for the moment and say, if you need to say something, tell me more.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Claire Horner:
Tell me more. Tell me what you can right now. If, if it needs to come later, it can come later. Just keeping that openness, that availability. You may not be able to say everything now, but you could always come back to me. But let's take care of you. That's the message you wanna give is I hear you. I believe you. Let's take care of you.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm
Claire Horner:
don't have to do anything right now. We don't have to do anything right now except honor this moment and honor what you've been through.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
I do think it's super important that to, to know that the likelihood that this sharing will come at a very random moment that is not timely.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
It may come when you're balancing five things and have groceries in hand or another child or something, and it just is that they found the moment. To get the words out of, out of their mouth,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm
Claire Horner:
and so everything has to stop
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
everything. If you're in the car, pull over.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right.
Claire Horner:
Nothing else matters in that moment.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Because what they've been through is, is the most important thing. And if they've managed to get it out of their mouth, it took a long time to get from,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah,
Claire Horner:
took a long pathway across the country, across the nation, across the world, potentially to get to what you're hearing right now. And it might even be a whisper because keep in mind, trauma is. Often, well always trauma always shuts off the language center.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm
Claire Horner:
And so sometimes getting to the words even later afterwards is very, very difficult.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Often why, why people don't talk about it. So those are my, my things is to keep that phrase in your back pocket. And I think that fits for so many situations. Tell me more. Um, because if someone's initiating a conversation, it's their.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right.
Claire Horner:
your turn, but it is their turn and the reactive response is not helpful. The other huge thing that, um, DRS and I talked about in thinking about these big ticket moments and what to do is prepare ahead of time.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Prepare your internal responses ahead of time. Know that it's likely not, like I said, it's potentially gonna happen in a random moment. It also may include information that you have a surprising reaction to.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
What if it's a sibling talking about another sibling? You are going to have some feelings about.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yeah.
Claire Horner:
So sit with that early,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And there has to be a place to check that. Right? So thinking about parental responses or just responses in general and thinking about that space of protecting our kids and wanting to show them that we want to protect them. And balancing, like Claire just mentioned, balancing that space between family, um, and other family members. Other siblings, right. And the other child. I think there's something to be said. Having conversations early, talking about safe spaces early.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
it's almost like a space of being preventative in communication so that your kids do feel comfortable coming and speaking to you about whatever they have on their mind. Whether that's, I've experienced this sexual trauma or I cut my finger, right? And then you being nurturing in those small instances, you being open in those small
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Um, You being willing to hear and listen to them in those small spaces, um, that allows for those big spaces. Um, they will be more apt to come to you in those bigger spaces as well. And so I think one of the things that we talk about is, um, how do we set up our communication dynamic with our kids? What does that dynamic look like? Um, on a, about, about everything on any given Sunday, right? What does that conversation look like? And. Because that's what's going to say, yay, this is gonna work. Okay. I know that I can talk to my mom about the boy. I can talk to my mom about the girl. I can talk to my dad about school. I can talk to my dad about, you know, sport, whatever the thing is. This is, this is no different.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
in that same line. I can still talk to them about this too. And as Clara said, because that language center is shut down, it's really important that kids have a space to go to, and know that they can come to you like you are that safe space. And so oftentimes it's really difficult to have that conversation. It's really difficult to hear. And as parents, sometimes we have to check our own trauma. We have to check our own experiences, um, and our own biase. Right. Check those things and, and not allow those things to be, the responsibility of our kids.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm. It's so helpful to hear you lay out these suggestions as to how to prepare, cuz I think that certainly for me, that's something I'm, I'm, I just have no knowledge of and, and so, you mentioned thinking about situations and how you might react and thinking about your own histories and, and checking yourself and make, and identifying your own triggers and how you might be inclined to instinctively respond, you know, and sitting with that, it's not comfortable right. Um, but, but such,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
comfortable. It's just not a comfortable situation, adult or child, right? Doesn't matter what, how old you are. It's just not a comfortable conversation. And, um, so it's, it's just difficult. It's difficult to have those conversations. And so spec specifically, we talk about adults, it's hard to, to verbalize those things, but can you imagine as a. To verbalize those
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
that comes along with that, and the courage that it takes for kids to say, this is what's going on with that fear in mind.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yes. Yeah, I just got chills rethinking about that. Like you said, the courage it would take. And, and Claire you mentioned like when it does come up, even at these inopportune moments, I love the mental picture of if you're in the car, like pull aside that, cuz I, I don't know if that would've been my initial reaction. I think being told, you know, if you're told in the car pull aside is so helpful because I, I, I could see myself being a deer in headlights and just continuing to just go through the motions and all the while trying to process, not thinking about how not stopping would
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
you know, your child or whomever is telling you their story.
Claire Horner:
Well, that goes along with, you know, How, what is the, what is the culture in your home of listening to one another? When someone says, I have something important to say, do you stop and turn to them and sort of drop what's happening? Or ask them, how much attention do you need? Do you need my full attention?
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
and if that is something that happens on a regular basis about other topics, then it will be much more instinctual with the big ones, and especially teenagers, I don't know. I was one for sure, and I picked some random times to speak to some things and um, and, and usually it was that moment of it just sliding out, you know? But keep in mind too, trauma also happens, and especially in this category of sexual abuse and sexual assault before children have language.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
So they don't always have the language to share. They may have the language to say, I'm uncomfortable. They may have the language. You know, we talk about body autonomy, even with young children, not making them hug everyone.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm.
Claire Horner:
not having the culture in your home that you must hug everyone that comes in the house, because that's the sweet thing to do. Especially if you're a girl. You know, that's, that's not, that's your choice. Who you hug is your choice.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
but I also think that, you know, another one of these cultural in, in the home kind of cultural things is maybe you don't have to say it. If you have something important to say to me, you can write it down or you can draw me a picture. You can give some indication that you need to get something to me. And sometimes words are hard, sometimes language is not.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
If you see an article or if you hear a song, or if you, you know, share, share those things with me, if it resonates with you. And then when this, if this topic comes up. And they need to share something that almost happened or um, or did happen then there's again, it's, there's already a, a path paved there for the, for the interactions. I will, I'm gonna also throw in kind of a like, uh, legal recommendation if you finish and kind of get through to the other side of this conversation and you know, you, you both feel terrible but good all at the same time because you've been, they've been able to share this with you. Definitely as a parent, as soon as you can, when you get in a, in a private space, write everything down that you heard.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Ah.
Claire Horner:
Start the record in case you need.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Write down where you were, what they said, what, how, how you interpreted what they said, what they named, if there're, you know, if there's who, what, where, when, why, and how. Questions that were answered.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm
Claire Horner:
details down. Go ahead and start the record cuz you may need it.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
That's such,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
it's important that that's something that we do after the fact, and that's not the goal during the conversation, right? So it's something I think that's so important because oftentimes we will forget or it, it, you know, goes out of our mind. But that's not what you wanna do in the conversation. You do want to be genuine, authentic, focused, checking yourself, checking with your kid, that kind of thing. And then for sure when you get a moment, um, Things have maybe settled down for sure. Document, document, document, document. As much as, um, as much as possible.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
The, that reminder to document. Is so helpful too, because I can imagine when big feelings come around that might not be your first instinct. You know? It's so you're still processing, you're still feeling all of these things. I could see myself being super upset and not, not wanting to necessarily write about that, maybe writing about other things. But, um, so that's, that's really helpful. And it, it, it relates to Claire, what you were saying about. Opening up different avenues to let your child communicate with you if, because sometimes a verbal communication isn't the easiest.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah, in introducing those multiple spaces of communication, because everyone doesn't communicate the exact same way, right? So because everyone doesn't communicate the same way, allowing your kid to communicate in the best way that helps them in that moment.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
and that may evolve over time and over developmental stages. You know, initially it may be drawing a picture and then it may be writing, and then it may be speaking and then, you know, that kind of thing. But allowing that range and differentiation of communication
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
allows them to be themselves. That's that space of also creating autonomy and creating a space of openness and conversation early on. And so when we think of like, how do you. How do you prevent, how do you help, how do you, um, ensure that your, your kid is going to share? And I say kid, cuz I don't wanna only focus on girls because oftentimes it's boys
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
right? So it's, it's sometimes there are situations where the boys have to have these conversations and it's usually difficult. More difficult, I would say, for boys to have the conversation because they're not taught that these are things that they should be having a conversation about.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
when those things do come up, if they know that any way they communicate is okay, we hear this thing where kids are, are small, kids are kind of communicating non-verbal. And parents are like, speak. I need you to speak. Use your voice. Use your voice. Well, when they get ready, they will. Right? They will use their voice at some point and it's, it's helpful to encourage them to use their voice, but sometimes things are not verbal.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Uh,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Um, and so if I can draw a picture, you know, we're not doing play therapy, but I can draw this picture to, to, to illustrate to you what's happening and then you can take it from there.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
I like the validation of writing and pictures. And honoring that as a way to express yourself. I think a lot of times in our extroverted society, we see saying something as the ultimate way of communicating, but being able to articulate period, what you're thinking and what you've gone through. is the end goal.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And oftentimes, you know, when someone is traumatized, it shuts down certain parts of their. Communication or certain parts of their brain or certain parts of their body. And so maybe that verbal communication isn't there anymore. Right. So, Claire talked a, a little bit earlier about that language piece, being affected. When trauma happens, sexual trauma happens. Sometimes that language piece is affected for a long period of time.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And so if the voice is gone, For a long period of time, whether that's a month or two months, or three months, or six months or a year. If that kid is no longer verbally communicating and the only way you will allow them to communicate their feelings is verbally, then that creates a barrier immediately. I think back to Maya Angelou who talked about her sexual trauma as a kid, and it's shutting down her verbal communication for over a year, she didn't communicate verbally.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right. He didn't
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Right. And when we think of Maya Angelou, we don't necessarily think of her not speaking, but, but it, she didn't communicate for a year verbally, out of fear of what would happen if she spoke. And so that lends itself to how we communicate our intent to protect our children to our children.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Right? So when we say if some someone does something to you, I will blank blank, and. Now a kid is probably afraid to even let you know that something has happened cuz they don't want something to happen to you or something to happen to the other person. Or something to happen to them. And so then they may not speak at all because they are in fear of what you may do to the person who's hurt them. And then also they may be in fear of what will then happen to you.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
So there's this dichotomy of, yeah, so there's this dichotomy of like, well, I'm going to lose my parent because if my parent does something violent and goes to prison or gets killed or something, then I'm gonna lose that person. And then now there's a possibly a person in my family that I'm also going to lose because my parent has done something to them. And so the pressure and the weight of that responsibility on children is heavy.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
mm
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
may cause, that may add another layer to that space of not communicating verbally and not saying anything. And so it's really important that other forms of communication is allowed and and invited. But it's also important that we as parents communicate our intent to protect, but also our intent to not put ourselves in danger, if that makes any sense. Cuz children do take on that respons. A lot of children don't speak about their sexual trauma or their sexual assault or sexual abuse as children for fear of
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
fear of
Claire Horner:
they may have heard you respond to someone, a situation on the news. They may have heard you, you know, react, you know, well, if that ever happened to
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
That's right. I'll kill him.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Claire Horner:
Exactly, and they are, they are listening and I, you know, we can't censor every second and that kind of thing, but if you hear yourself say something like that and you catch it, you can always go back and say, you know what? You know, we were listening to the news and all that horrible stuff that was happening or is happening with so-and-so, and I said this and I want you to know.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
You know, I thought about that and, and how that might have, how that might have sounded. The, the child may not say anything, but you're following up to, to clarify your message. And even if, even if, let's say you, you do all the wrong things.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
they tell you and you don't stop the car and you say, that couldn't have happened. If some of
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
all the questions you
Claire Horner:
If you ask all, if you interrogate as soon as you can turn it around. You know what? I reacted and I didn't listen to you.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
mm
Claire Horner:
And you know what? Let, can we try that again and maybe not write the, you may not be ready right this second and if you don't trust me, I understand cuz I res, I reacted.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
mm
Claire Horner:
But if you, if you find it or if you're able to give me a second chance whenever you're ready, I'm.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm.
Claire Horner:
That
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
the elephant in the room because we're not perfect, right? Like we're human. Our reactions are going to be human reactions. And so there's nothing wrong with going back and saying, I often say things like, um, okay, wait a minute. I wasn't prepared for that. So, Let me process it for just two seconds. Okay, now let's
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
like, like the elephant in the room is I'm human and my reaction is initially, but now I'm listening. Now I'm paying attention. And so I love that idea of I get to go back and say, this was my initial reaction. I may not have allowed you the opportunity to speak. I may not have, you know, given you my full attention in that. Let me redo that so that you now have my full attention, and if you do wanna come back, we can have this conversation that kind of, vulnerability on, on our part as the adults
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
helps the kid understand that, okay, it's not gonna be a perfect situation, but you know, mom and dad, cousin, auntie, whoever is going to be there.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yeah. And, and about vulnerability. I think people often hesitate because they don't wanna do the wrong thing, but even that hesitation can imply something else. They may not know that you're just figuring it out in your head, but putting it out there that, like, I don't know what to do right now, and I'm just thinking about this for a minute. That's so helpful. Like that's a, a script that I also wanna put into my, you know, the litany of things that I'm trying to remember to
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Something we haven't touched on, and you know, I've been using this word a lot, but like the culture in the home, you know, people ask, what can we do to prevent? And so there's. There's a couple things there. One is we can't keep other people from acting in ways they've already decided to act. Those are two different things we can, we can do whatever we can to set things up well,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
that is their decision in all of the shootings and crimes and hate that we've been watching. You probably most even a child would say, that's not the fault of the people who were in the
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
recently.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
That's not the fault of the driver
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Right.
Claire Horner:
who maybe accidentally cut the person off. It's, it's that person's decision. And we can't always control that decision, and so we have to separate out the two. A lot of times people take ownership and blame in order to try to get control back. Well, if I could have prevented it, then X, y, Z wouldn't have happened. And it's understandable to try to grab the control back in that way. It's, it's understandable. It, the math just doesn't work.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm.
Claire Horner:
At all. One plus one is two, not three.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Uh,
Claire Horner:
You know, you, you can't take somebody else's decision and put it on yourself. Even if they put it on you,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
even if they tell you it's your fault, it doesn't make it your fault.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
mm.
Claire Horner:
So, so the, that's an, that's an a crucial piece, you know, and we, we hear that on, on the therapy. Often in, in the mirror, probably often as
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Often. Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
so the other piece is if there was a prevention type of thing, it is to instill self-worth, self-value, love of self.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
And because when we don't have that, it is a beacon. A lot of times it's a, you know, I, I call it the marquee that rolls across our forehead and neon letters. It's, you know, I don't have good boundaries. there are messages and a lot of times those messages are there because someone gave them to a child and the child just took them cuz they didn't know what else to do.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm.
Claire Horner:
They just took that in because nobody else was saying, nobody was saying.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Anything opposite of that.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm mm.
Claire Horner:
And so self value and catching things, catching red flags, you know, again, all of that shouldn't be on us to do, except that we tend to naturally do some of those things when we value ourselves. And again, I'm not putting the onus on us valuing ourselves always on us because you know, many times the people who raised us did not instill that and did the
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
And so we have to catch it. And so any of those pieces of I'm not worthy or I don't love myself, or I don't trust myself, we have to go after it. Like it's a, a disease and, and find, find the antidote so to speak, the antidote being hopefully love, hopefully some good things even from a pet, you know, or, or nature or, um, that's a whole episode.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah, I think that's a really good point though, that space of understanding the family culture and how we set up the culture in our home for our children and how they communicate and what our dynamics are going to be. I oftentimes say that when a child is assaulted, there's usually a door. there's something to be said about, doors and windows. I always say there's doors and windows for each kid, right? And so sometimes doors are open that invite unwanted things.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
That's not the fault of the kid, that's not the fault of the parent, right? If someone, like Claire said, if someone's going to do something that was already there. I liken that to the space of if Uncle Charlie was already doing that, uncle Charlie's going to do that. Has nothing to do with Sarah Sue being whoever, Sarah Sue. Those things don't correlate, right? Because oftentimes we say, well, what were you doing? How were you interacting? Or, you know, you can't do this or, and I don. As a sexual trauma specialist, um, as a woman and as a mother of a daughter, I don't like to have that conversation about what you should not do to prevent someone else's behavior,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
then that means you are now responsible for someone else's behavior. And that's not accurate.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
So not healthy. Right,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
It's not healthy to, to have that kind of responsibility of someone else's, um, behavior or feelings. Right? And so that conversation about, awareness of self, but also the fact that victim blaming victim shaming, it's not you, it's Uncle Charlie. Uncle Charlie is who he is. He's going to do that, whether it's you or whether it's the cousin next door or the girl down the street, or the boy across the street. That's going to happen regardless. And I think having that conversation and allowing, um, children to understand that is really important.
Claire Horner:
And how do we catch that and shut that down
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And mm-hmm. And that's where that space over, you mentioned it earlier, Claire, you don't have to hug everybody. You don't have to go hang out with someone that you don't wanna hang out with. there's an instinct that happens with kids that if it's shut down, then it's extinguished, right? Like, if I have an instinct as a kid that I don't necessarily wanna go hang out with that adult. I don't really know why I don't wanna hang out with that adult, but I don't really wanna go hang out with that adult. But if it's extinguished by saying, don't act like that. Don't be like they're just trying to have, you know, some time with you. Well, now you've extinguished my instinct and you've extinguished and my intuition, and now I don't trust it because you are the adult that I trust. Right.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And you've just told me to now don't pay attention to that thing that's bubbling up in me. The hairs that are standing up on the back of my neck, the goosebumps, you've just told me not to pay attention to that, but to listen to someone else external.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
I'm not listening to myself when things are happening, right?
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
right.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
I have a friend, I was telling Claire this story about my, uh, a friend of mine, his daughter is two years old, and he was having a bad day and he said, you know, can you give daddy a hug? And she said No. And he said, All right, no problem. And he said, you know, daddy sad. She was like, mm-hmm. And she said, he said, do, does it look like daddy needs a hug? She said, mm-hmm. And he said, you still don't wanna give daddy a hug? She said, Nope. He said, absolutely, you, you don't have to give me a hug. And that's her father.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yeah, that's
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
But that autonomy of you don't have to just because it's me.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
who it is. If you don't want to in this moment, for whatever reason, it's okay. And teaching her that even at two, that my, sense of self is important. Whatever that looks like.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yeah,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And so that's how we do that space of like prevention. It's teaching early. It's how, what's that culture in our household of, you know, I can close my door if I need to. I can have some privacy if I need to. Like those little things. Tell our kids that their, meter is ok..
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Now, what would you suggest for, for parents that maybe have not had early conversations or, maybe can see themselves in some of these don'ts, uh, and they have older kids now, is all lost or are there ways to kind of re reengage that intuition and,
Claire Horner:
If you have a 40 year old, it's not too late!
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Absolutely. I don't think it's ever too late. You can still have that conversation where it is, you know you can say anything, you can talk to me about anything. Um, is there anything that you wanna talk to me about having that conversation? Just leaving the
Claire Horner:
Anything might look like X, Y, Z, even giving examples.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Examples of what that conversation is and also when they do have those, uh, conversations that we're uncomfortable with, checking our own feelings and our own biases about what we think they should be doing at 17 and 18. And also what we were doing when we were 17 and 18.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And not allowing our traumas and our triggers to be their narrow responsibility. Because oftentimes we parent based on our experiences, right? Whether good or bad, we either do the absolute opposite of what we experienced, or we do exactly like what we experienced.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And because of that, we sometimes, um, transfer our trauma and our triggers onto our kids. And that can be where the conversation shuts down.
Claire Horner:
Mm-hmm.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Yeah.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
are saying, when we're parenting based on our fear of what we think is going to happen to them or with them. Um, and so no, there's no time that's too late to have a conversation. um, or even wanting to open the door, like go back and say you. I remember when you were younger, you know, X, Y, and Z, and we never really talked about it, and I'm wondering if that's something that we should have talked about or something that we can talk about now. Um, you know, I'm learning more about X, Y, and Z, or I'm maturing in a way or my enlightenment is different now than it was when I was a parent to you as a kid. And so I have a better understanding of certain things and I'm wondering if I missed something. And if I did, if it's something that you wanna share, that's a conversation that can, that you can have at any stage, at any age. Um, and it really does impact your kid. Hearing that from a parent, like, I may have missed something. And it's not because I intentionally wanted to miss it. I just didn't really know how to respond to that. I didn't really know how to react to that. Um, I have a little bit more wherewithal now and I'm wondering if that's a conversation that you're even open to.
Claire Horner:
Or I handled that horribly. I have parents who tell me the stories of what they, what they did, and, and are, are tortured by it.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Because they had the reactions and then things got covered over and then time passed and you know, life kept moving and you know, but that circle back is
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
So important. It's so important.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
I have tears and chills right now it just, it feels so healing and it's so, reassuring to hear from both of you. It, it's never too late.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
Yeah.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Um, you know, something that came up, a question that came up, and it might be a little bit of a departure, but in holding space for our kids and honoring how they want to process and the timing of their disclosure and, um, emotions, you know, what happens if your child did experience sexual assault or sexual abuse, but they don't want anyone to find out besides you, the parent. At what point is there a point where you know you have to go against your kids' instincts or wishes to keep it private.
Claire Horner:
It's so hard.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
I will say it's very difficult because again, we wanna protect our kids, but I think there's something to be said about honoring their feelings in the moment. Um, and I think there's something to be said about, explaining things to them when it's appropriate, right? Like, so initially that may be where they say, don't tell anybody. I don't want anyone else to know. I just, I just wanna share. And in that moment, that's where we need to be.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
And there will be. Right, right. Exactly. I was gonna say, not promising, I'll never say anything because at some point you want to have a conversation with the, with your child or with the kid about, empowerment. Right. Taking back their voice. Right. Being empowered To advocate for themselves in a way, right? And that conversation in that developmental space that's appropriate for them. But that's kind of the gist of it. And I think that maybe at some point they do want to do something.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
They do want to tell someone else. They do want to make a report. They do want to seek justice in some way, and it may be where they don't wanna seek justice but they will become less ashamed because really that, that comes from a space of shame. Don't tell anyone. Don't tell anyone. That's a, that's a shame space, right? And so teaching them and helping them kind of navigate out of that space of shame and be more empowered with their experience and help them, whether that be through therapy or whatever that looks like for them, so that they can then be able to have a conversation.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Hmm.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
About what their experience has been. I agree with Claire not making any promises that I'll never say anything. Now am I gonna go, you know, tell it to the family reunion? No, I'm not telling it to the family reunion. Um, it's not something that is for everyone to know, because here's the thing. As we talked about earlier in this conversation, there's something to be said about the sharing of this experience and the courage that that takes for that to be verbalized. And can you imagine that it's also something that they may be afraid that if everyone knows how are they gonna look at me?
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Right, right.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Can you imagine that? It took me everything I had to tell you. And if I think everybody else in the family knows, oh God, I'll die. Like I literally, it will be too much. So I think there's something to be said about, no, I'm not gonna promise that. I'll never say anything ever in life, but I can promise you this. I'll respect your space.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
mm.
Claire Horner:
Or we do it together.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Or, yeah. Or if, if, mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
I would say be careful to, as a parent, go to a professional as soon as you can for yourself. Getting your child help is certainly good too, but they will also be able to help you navigate some of those things. I mean, we are mandated reporters and there may be some things there, but, that's a different tangent. Um, but you know, you may feel like it's your job to tell the other parent whether you're married to them or not, you may feel like the other parent should know. And that's really probably the, the child's role too, um, is to decide when and how that happens. Whether you assist, that's something, or whether you enlist a professional and you all go together and that's where they share. So there's a little bit more boundaried space and those types of things. Um, there are some different avenues to take. Um, Dr. Sadohl and I will be sharing with you, Cat, a few resources that you can put with the information that goes with this episode. Um, but even parents going through mandated reporter training,
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Claire Horner:
a, proactive step to know what those processes are. Um, and, there are lawyers that specialize in this area. Um, I would go check, check Facebook groups and things like that for support. I'm not gonna recommend a particular one necessarily, but there are some good resources there.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Dr. Sadohl, what you were saying about holding space versus reacting to it or publicizing it. I think, there's this an innate desire to wanna fix fast as a parent and, and pacing it and not closing the door on disclosure at a later point in time, but approaching things in a incremental fashion And that relates to, I think, Claire, what you were saying as well about not necessarily sharing with your, your partner in parenting, and that being a decision of your kid. I, I don't know if I would've thought of that, cuz I instinctively share everything.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah. Especially as it relates to the kids, right? Like you share everything as it relates to the kids. Uh, there's some things that you want to hold.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
do either of you have a parting thought or sentiment that you'd like to share with the listeners?
Claire Horner:
Okay, I have one. It's strong, so I'm gonna take a beat, but this is something that came up for me last year sometime. Um I don't know. I don't know why it came so strong, but it was, it felt timely. And it's not an affirmation and it's not, it's not like the warm and fuzzy, but I, you know what I'm gonna say, don't you? Um, there is something that I think is super important, so I'm, I'm just gonna say it. You cannot lose your virginity by assault. Sex and sexual assault are very different things.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
Mm,
Claire Horner:
They are worlds apart from each other.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah, that's good. I don't have another one. I'm gonna take Claire's. That's perfect.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
It's, it's fantastic and, and honestly, I had not heard that before,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Mm-hmm.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:
makes complete sense,
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Many of us right? Many of us haven't heard that. Mm-hmm.
Claire Horner:
That idea. I hear reverberated in people. that those are very different things. And if you have Been through sexual assault, been through sexual abuse, the sex is different.
Dr. SaDohl Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. And many people haven't heard that, just like you said. And that has its own connotation, right? So that encouragement and that empowerment, um, that releases a lot. I'll say that. It releases a lot.
undefined:
I am so incredibly grateful for this conversation with Claire and Dr. Sadohl and I hope you took as much from it as I did. I usually do a shortlist of takeaways from each episode. But since this one was so good and longer than usual, my list is longer too. But don't worry about remembering everything. There are transcripts on the website @knowberaisethem.com. And I will be making these into carousels on Instagram, @knowberaisethem. You can also connect with Dr. SaDohl and Claire on Instagram and Tik TOK @resettraumaunstuck, With no spaces. And find the freak out free podcast on your favorite podcasting platform. These links are all in the show notes as well. So please visit there to access all of that goodness. Here are my key takeaways. Number one. Be proactive in creating safe, judgment, free spaces on a day-to-day basis. When you're willing to listen and nurture your daughters with small things, your daughters will feel more comfortable speaking to you about big things. Number two. If there is a prevention type of tactic, it is to instill self-worth. Self value and self-love. Because when a child doesn't have that, it is a beacon. If there's evidence of I'm not worthy or I don't love myself. Myself or I don't trust myself. We as parents have to address it. Number three. Remind your kids that we can't keep other people from acting in ways they've already decided to act that is on them. We can't take responsibility for somebody else's decision. Girls and women are not responsible for boys and men's behavior and vice versa. Number four. Think about how you're setting your kids expectations. If we say if someone does something to you, I will blank, blank, blank, blank. Your child may not share with you because they're afraid of what you may do and what that could lead to. Number five. Stop everything. If your child is sharing their experience of sexual trauma. It's likely that this sharing will come at a very random moment. But be sure to go into a space of listening. Control your anger questioning or desire to take action. What we feel is best for us in the moment might silence the communication and impact your relationship with your child. Number six. Only share your child's experience with others when your child is ready and with their permission. Number seven when you get to a private space, as soon as you can write everything down that you've been told. Write down where you were, what was said? The, who, what, where, when, why and how of the situation. Start the record because you may need it. Number eight. It's never too late to re-engage and have conversations and say the things you wish you had said earlier. Or apologize for how you handled something. You can say, you know, I reacted this way and I may not have allowed you to speak or given you my full attention. I'd love a redo. That kind of vulnerability, no matter when it comes up will have a huge impact on your child. And number nine. Tell your daughter that you can't lose your virginity by assault. Consensual sex and sexual assault are very different things. When Claire said this, I was bowled over to be honest. It's so obvious and so empowering to make consent part of the equation of virginity. I think it's so important for people to know. If you or someone, you know, has been sexually assaulted. Help is available. As noted earlier, you can check out rain, R a I N n.org for more resources and information. And Claire and Dr. SaDohl also recommend Saprea an organization devoted to fighting sexual abuse and its lasting impacts through healing and prevention services. They can be found at saprea.org. Thanks for listening today and being the committed intentional parent that you are. If you enjoy the podcast please follow, tell a friend and leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify. If you haven't already. Also as a listener, I'd like to invite you to be one of the founding members of the rise and raise collective. It's a mastermind I'm starting of mindful growth oriented girl moms who want to grow as individuals and parent with intention. Now, when I say mastermind, this does not mean you have to be an expert. I am not an expert by any stretch. It's really a sense of curiosity and commitment to personal development and growth that qualifies someone to be part of this. My vision is to provide a safe and celebratory space to learn, grow and connect with other moms of tween and teen girls. We can share stories, ask questions, cheer each other on and get advice from other people who are on the same journey as you are. So in terms of what to expect, I envision virtual gatherings with other moms in a casual way and yet intimate. Like a sharing circle where moms can ask questions and tap into the wisdom of the hive if you will. Monthly group coaching sessions, where we can discuss mindset, positivity. Setting boundaries, working towards goals. Tiny habits. All these different things that we could do to potentially improve ourselves, but it could help to have some accountability and information to nudge us along. And then virtual events with experts, moms who've been there, the types of guests that are on the podcast, but have a chance to ask questions and learn. If you're interested, shoot me a direct message on Instagram @knowberaisethem visit the website knowberaisethem.com and you can send me an email from there. Or head to the show notes. I will have my email there as well. Thanks again for listening. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.
Sexual Trauma Specialists / Therapists / Podcaster
Claire and Dr. SaDohl (suh-doll), are two sexual trauma specialists in Atlanta, Georgia. To heal their own trauma while helping others do the same, they have dedicated their professional and personal lives to healing. They have over 39 years of combined sexual trauma recovery experience, both in the therapist chair and on the couch as clients.
Their channel and business is called “RESET: Trauma Unstuck” and they launched “The FOF or Freak Out FREE Podcast on Valentines Day where they match survivors, helpers, and allies with resources for sexual trauma healing to increase confidence and handle life…The Freak Out Free Way.”
