Kids, Tech & the Good Enough Digital Parent // with Katie Davis

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:00:02

Welcome to know them. Be them, raise them a show that helps moms be and raise strong women, Through regular audio doses of information and inspiration. I'm Carmelita to mom of two tween, soon to be teen girls, spouse, co-parent, life coach, working mom and your host. So today's topic, kids and technology use, is one that is so pervasive that it's almost cliche. We've all asked ourselves how much screen time should kids have? Am I giving my kids too much? Am I a bad parent for letting my kids spend an entire rainy afternoon playing Roblox? When should they get cell phones? The list goes on and on. That's why I leapt at the opportunity to chat with Dr. Katie Davis associate professor at the university of Washington (UW) and director of the UW digital youth lab. Dr. Davis holds two master's degrees and a doctorate in human development and education. From Harvard graduate school of education. For nearly 20 years, Dr. Davis has been researching the impact of digital technologies on young people's learning development and wellbeing. She has published more than 70 academic publications and is the author of three books exploring technology's role in young people's lives. The app generation with Howard Gardner, Writers in the secret garden. Fanfiction youth and new forms of mentoring with Cecilia Aragon, and most recently technology's child. Digital media's role in the ages and stages of growing up, which was released in March of 2023. In each of these books and in our interview, Dr. Davis draws on her expertise in developmental science and technology design. As well as her experiences as a parent to help us make sense of the often confusing landscape of research and media messages about kids and technology. Here's our conversation. Hello, Katie. It's so great to meet you and talk with you. I'm just really excited to hear your thoughts on this important issue and your book.

Katie Davis: 00:02:11

Thank you so much for having me, Cat. I'm delighted to be here.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:02:15

I'd love to start by hearing you share with the listeners a little bit about what brought you to the work that you do and the books that you've written.

Katie Davis: 00:02:24

Yeah, so I've been researching kids and technology for almost 20 years now. It's hard to believe. But before that, my professional hat that I wore was as an elementary school teacher. And so this was back in the early to mid two thousands. And, you know, I, loved teaching. I always wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a teacher and a writer. and I feel like I still am, I'm a writer for sure, and I get to teach still, but older kids, and adults. But, I was always interested in how children come to learn about. Themselves and their role in society. And as I was experiencing life as a teacher in the classroom and sometimes outside the classroom, for instance, talking with parents or doing lunch duty, it became clear to me that technology was increasingly becoming central to how that happened and how young people learn, how they develop, how they make sense. Of the world. And so I went to graduate school to really understand a little bit more how were these new technologies transforming the process of learning and development. So I went to grad school in 2005. And if you think about what was going on that time, MySpace was still very big. Facebook had just launched and it was only available for, college students and only in a limited way. YouTube was new, very new and we were just on the cusp of so many interesting and transformative technologies, and so. Being able to be a researcher starting back then, all throughout this time and watching the changes and the new platforms that have come online, and I've now written three books about some aspect of kids and technology and it's just been, so interesting to watch the changes over the years.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:23

Hmm Hmm. Well, speaking of your latest book, technology's Child, digital Media's role in the ages and stages of growing up? I love how it's structured because as a busy parent and, not having toddlers anymore, I sort of. Skimmed over the, the sections, the chronology of, you know, early stage development, et cetera. so it, it just feels very practical and approachable. you clearly pack a ton of information into this, but again, it feels very accessible because of the way it's set up. And, the language that you write in felt very straightforward.

Katie Davis: 00:04:57

Yeah, it was actually by design. I did that because, you know, I, as a researcher, I've been very comfortable with the complexity of this area. It's, it's very complicated. Whenever people ask me, what's the impact of technology on kids? Is it good or is it bad? I have invariably answered, well, it's complicated. Sometimes it can be good, sometimes it can be bad. But then when I became a parent myself, I realized that that doesn't really give you concrete strategies for parenting.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:05:25

Hmm.

Katie Davis: 00:05:26

And so I was really motivated to write technology's child in an attempt to bring my researcher hat and my parent hat together and, and try and give my parent self some concrete, actionable advice. That I could actually use day to day. And so that's what I was really trying to do for myself and for parents and teachers. I addressed, learning as well. And so, yeah. I'm really glad to hear that, you found the same thing.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:05:53

definitely. Well, and, and right off the bat, I think it's part of the introduction, but you made a statement about how asking whether screens and screen time are good or bad are not the right questions. It's just technology has become too central to our lives. And I have to admit, when I read that I had this weight lifted off my shoulders because I think part of me is still stuck in that like, screen time is bad I need to manage, I need to. Put like hard boundaries on these things and it really, I don't know if normalized or just sort of, validated the complexity of the issue and it made me think, okay, there's a different way and it doesn't have to mean black and white, like draconian measures that to date have not felt very successful when I've been trying to implement anything of the sort with my daughters.

Katie Davis: 00:06:41

That's right. It's really, you know, to ask is it, is it good or is it bad? You know, we're, we've left that question. Far behind, especially since the pandemic technology is just so firmly entrenched in our lives. It's really hard to escape. And so the question I'm asking in this book is, when is technology good and when is it bad for children's development at different stages of development? And so I look at different stages starting from toddlers, going all the way up to 20 something in emerging adulthood. And I look at. When can technology support healthy development? And what are the signs importantly, and when might it undermine or get in the way of healthy development? And I really boiled down the research into two steps. So I call it the two step decision tool to evaluate is this experience that my child is having, is this good for them or is it not so good for them? And so the first step, and I use this every day in my parenting of my son Oliver. I ask, is this experience self-directed? And by self-directed, I mean, is this. An experience where my son is in the driver's seat of his technology experience and typically the kinds of technology experience that place a child in the driver's seat and give them agency tend to be open-ended. They tend to be self-paced. Things that. Really allow for a lot of choice, that aren't designed to co-opt attention. So if you think about social media, it's kind of the ultimate co-op of our attention. it doesn't have to be that way though. So I talk a lot in the book about how the design of certain technologies makes it more or less self-directed.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:32

Ah, can you shed a little more light on maybe examples of instances where you felt like it was a successful self-directed technology relationship versus say social media.

Katie Davis: 00:08:45

Right. Absolutely. So one example that I give is, and this is for younger kids, but my son Oliver, loves this app called Peppa's Paint Box. It's from Peppa Pig

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:58

Hmm.

Katie Davis: 00:08:59

it's a drawing app. And when he opens it, he's taken to a blank canvas automatically and he really is in the driver's seat there. He can decide what color he wants to choose, what implement he wants to use, whether it's a paintbrush or a pencil, and he can decide what he's gonna draw and put on that blank canvas. There's no music in the background that kind of emphasizes. A forward motion as many apps have music or they have timers that are counting down and they really are dictating the pace. With this app, it's very much self-paced rather than system paced, and there aren't any characters. Sometimes in kids' games, there are characters who cry when you exit the game. And that is sort of an, an incentive to keep the child on the platform and keep them playing. so that's an actually a great example of a, a dark pattern in design. There are lots of these dark patterns that designers will introduce deliberately into the design of a technology, whether it's for children or adults. And the specific purpose is to. Keep us engaged, keep our hold our attention, and keep us on the platform with social media. Examples would be the infinite scroll. There used to actually be an end to our feed, but there is no longer an end. Our feeds also used to be curated chronologically. Now they're curated algorithmically for the most part. And again, they're curated based on what the algorithm knows will capture our attention and hold our attention, not necessarily what is gonna support a feeling of mastery and self-direction. So yeah, so those are just some examples of when design can be used to support self-direction and when it can be used, not so much to support self-correction.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:10:50

I think sometimes it can feel like a gray area and knowing some of the, the signs or things to look for is super helpful.

Katie Davis: 00:10:58

Absolutely. Another thing that I look for and, it's based on research, that has been done actually by some of my colleagues at the University of Washington is determining when your child is interacting with the technology. It could be their phone, it could be a video game. Are they able to hold a conversation with you or is their attention completely absorbed in what they're doing now? Some of that is fine. You know, I let my son watch TV and when he is watching tv, nobody can talk to him. but I try to limit that because that's more of a passive experience and. There's not a lot that he's really doing. Sometimes we'll have interesting conversations about the show afterwards, and I try to encourage that because I can try to develop his storytelling abilities and, trying to understand what he, if anything he might have learned from the show. But, yeah, thinking about what can your child have a conversation with you, is a really good indicator if they're still in control of their attention.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:57

Ah, A a As you say that I'm thinking about all the times I've said something and there's no response. I'm like, hello? Excuse me.

Katie Davis: 00:12:06

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we can turn this on ourselves as parents too. Sometimes I notice that Oliver tries to make a bid for my attention, but I am checking my phone or I'm checking my email and I realize, oh my goodness, my attention is totally co-opted. I am not in the driver's seat right now of my. Technology experience, so it really can go both ways and it's very useful I think, because parents are often struggling with the same things that their kids are struggling with when it comes to technology.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:37

I'm so glad you mentioned that, cuz it is one of the themes that I. I think I tend to hit on in, my podcast is basically the importance of role modeling. And so being self-aware and noticing yourself and how these same things might affect us as parents is super important. and a great reminder. Yeah.

Katie Davis: 00:12:56

Yeah, and role modeling is actually a really important piece of the second step of this two-step decision tool, and that is community support. So parents are huge sources of community support, for kids technology experiences. And so this is the case. With little kids. So when I'm watching Oliver play Peppa's Paintbox, or when he's watching tv, I'm trying to talk with him about what he's learning. So all of that, what I'm doing is providing support around his technology experience. When you get into older kids, tweens and teens, you know, they have much more, more sophisticated internal lives. You can have more in-depth conversations. And this, I think, is a great opportunity to role model, not just to show your kids look at how I do it, and I'm doing so well. Because it can be very powerful to show them what you're struggling with and maybe even have a dialogue and maybe even come up with strategies together. So one very common struggle that parents and teens have is checking their phone during the night. And that's a great opportunity to think, well, maybe we can have a pact where we put our phones in a different room and you know, sort of become a team in trying to, address some of these challenges.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:13

Mm. I I love that to your point about, as your kids get older, having dialogue, having discussion, cuz I think so much of. At least when I was raising my kids when they were a little younger, were thoughts around limiting the screen time, and restricting what it was that they had access to, which I still think is important

Katie Davis: 00:14:33

absolutely.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:34

And I think what you raise here about not seeing technology as a necessary evil, but kind of acknowledging that it exists and taking opportunities when you can to have it bring you closer.

Katie Davis: 00:14:49

Finding common ground I think is so important, finding connection, especially when you are thinking about tweens and teens, sometimes conversations can be challenging to have. And, I think one thing that parents can do is approach these conversations with real empathy and curiosity. And really consider what teens are doing developmentally and just how important it is to them. So it's not that they're just hanging out with their friends, wasting time in the context of hanging out with their friends. They're doing really important development around their social development, their identity development, and you might even think of that as a job that they have. It's their developmental job is to figure out who they are and who their friends are and what role they're gonna play in society. Sometimes adults minimize or even dismiss Some things that teens are doing is not important, but if we reframe that a little bit and think they're actually doing a very important job, that's just as important as your job or my job, that can help those conversations. And really support a connection between parent and child in these conversations so that teens don't feel judged or they don't feel dismissed. It's, that's really important cuz if they feel that they're not really being listened to or their experiences aren't really being taken seriously, they're unlikely to share a lot with their parents.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:19

Hmm hmm. Now, as you're saying this, I'm recalling an instance where, like, as a, I guess it was kind of a punishment, but my knee jerk was to restrict access to the device, but now I'm thinking, To your point about kind of that social interaction being their job and developing as a young person and this device being part of that, what advice do you have for parents in terms of access to technology

Katie Davis: 00:16:48

Well, I think, you know, parents have many roles that they can play in this, and one role is as gatekeeper, especially in the early tween years. There's a lot going on online and you don't want your child to be exposed to all of it. So I think it's absolutely. reasonable for parents to play a larger role, especially in the early teen years. So, for instance, introducing parental controls. there's even an operating system that is specifically, tailored and designed for. tweens and teens And I think that that is absolutely appropriate. But importantly, I think if. Parents are going to use these tools like parental control apps and such. It's important not just to put them on your child's phone and use them to spy on them, but rather, use it as a way to engage in conversations and say, these are the things that I am concerned about and this is. What I'm gonna do as a result, and we're gonna have an ongoing dialogue and we're going to observe and see how things go. And over time we may remove some of the guardrails as appropriate. And it's gonna be very individual child to child because children have very different trajectories in their development. And I think, you know, a one size fits all is not going to work when it comes to when to. Introduce a phone, when to allow your child onto social media and things like that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:16

That's another thing I loved about, your book was that real encouragement to be, subjective or custom if you will, to your child's needs and your child's situation. Cuz I can imagine that. if you have a child that struggles with a D H D or has some emotional concerns, you may manage things in a different way versus, maybe a kid that really wants to interact with social media strictly for, talking about Roblox or talking about like their games or whatnot.

Katie Davis: 00:18:46

Kids are all different. They're all very different. So in technology's child, I introduced the idea of a good enough digital parent, and the overarching framework for that, is first, the recognition of just how much pressure there is on parents today when it comes to raising their kids. And it's not just technology, but everything about parenting, making sure that you're, you know, feeding them healthy foods and that you're signing them up for the best camps. and then, you know, putting them on a path where they have had all these experiences that they get into a good college. There's just so much pressure on parents, and that applies to technology experience as well. And so I introduced the good enough digital parent as an antidote to all of that pressure and that guilt. the idea actually comes from a pediatrician, Donald Winnicott, from the middle of the 20th century. and Winnicott was talking about the idea of the good enough mother. I've updated it at least to say, okay, the good enough parent, um, um, fathers and mothers equally. And the idea that when a cop was putting forward was that actually, if you're there to respond to every bid your child makes for attention, then you're actually doing them a disservice. So if they're really frustrated, they're trying to figure out a puzzle or a homework problem, and if you swoop in and help them solve it, they're not gonna build the resilience to work through challenging experiences and solve it for themselves. If they are super bored and the parent is right there to suggest the next thing that they can do, they're never gonna learn how to get themselves unbored. So it's actually in kids' best interest Winnicott argued for parents to actually embrace imperfection and not always be there 100% for your child. So I bring that idea into the digital space and I say, okay, well the good enough digital parent is gonna do their best to steer their child towards self-directed community supported digital experiences. But they'll know that they're not gonna be perfect at it because there's always gonna be a new technology. They probably don't have time to read all of the reviews in Common Sense Media before they download an app or try out a TV show. And that's okay. good enough digital parents, they try things out. Importantly, they observe how their children react, how they react themselves, and they adjust accordingly. good enough digital parents also recognize that they're struggling themselves with technology and that they're not gonna be perfect at this, And that's okay because they know that these technologies have been designed specifically to co-opt our attention. And sometimes we can use our, stumbles as teaching moments to teach our children and say, you know what? I've just become really distracted. Let, let me turn my phone off and we'll just focus on the game that we were playing or whatever we were doing before. So I'm hoping that this concept of the good enough digital parent will ease some of the guilt that I know parents are feeling around technology because I am feeling it as well. and actually the one other important piece is the recognition that parents have not created all of these challenges and they shouldn't be expected to solve all of them. I think too often all of the burden of society's ills is placed on the family, especially in an individualistic society like the US and so, Recognizing that it's not just on parents to figure this out, but it's on the government and policy and the tech industry itself and schools, everybody has a role to play in supporting children's healthy, digital experiences.

undefined: 00:22:52

Uh, I really liked this one. I think technology is such a difficult thing to wrap your head around. So I kind of loved Katie's reassurances on the good enough digital parent. So here are my top six takeaways. Number one is screen-time good or bad is not really the question. Technology is embedded and part of our lives. Instead let's ask, how does screen time aid, healthy development? Number two. Katie has a two step tool for assessing tech first seek self-directed experiences. Avoid infinite scrolls, attention tricks, you know, manipulative ploys within the games or apps they're using. And secondly, the community support aspect, connect with your child by discussing their digital world, what they learn, see, and absorb. Number three developmentally, it's a teens job to shape their identity friendships, and what roles they'll play in society. So see online interactions as part of their work. This helps us approach talks with empathy and compassion and let them be heard and not feel judged. Number four parental controls do matter, use them as tools to discuss and share your concerns. Number five there's no one size fits all approach to tech. It really depends on the child. Each child develops uniquely. And number six, be a good enough digital parent. We have a lot of pressure on us. Try new things, adjust as needed. Admit your struggles and embrace imperfection. To learn more about Katie Davis's work visit katiedavisresearch.com and all of her books are available on Amazon or at your favorite bookseller, including technology's child digital media's role in the ages and stages of growing up. It's a helpful read with many actionable tips and, Digestible advice. And i recommended for anybody that's really trying to understand technology and its impact on kids and wants to incorporate it in a healthy way into their children's lives. These links are in the show notes as well.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:09

Thanks so much for listening. It takes action to claim something. And by tuning in, you're showing up for yourself and your daughter. And embodying curiosity and a growth mindset. Celebrate that. If you haven't done so already follow on your favorite podcasting platform, tell a friend and leave a review. Also visit KnowBeRaiseThem.com and drop me a line or a voice memo if you have questions, comments, or topic ideas. Again, I am grateful for your time and here's to strong women may we know them may we be them and may we raise them