Grappling with Girl Friendships // with Jessica Speer

[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hello, everyone. I'm Carmelita too. And welcome to know them. Be them, raise them a show to help busy, mindful growth oriented moms stay informed and inspired as they navigate their daughters, tween and teen years with most episodes running 20 minutes or less. If you're interested in hearing from experts, authors, therapists, coaches, moms, who've been there and hear a curated selection of.

[00:00:27] Be sure to follow or subscribe and follow at Novi, raise them on instant. So girls' and friendships. Where do we start? I can remember navigating clicks, hearing whispers, taking sides and witnessing silent treatments. I can even think of a few times I ate in the library in high school specifically because I just didn't want to deal with the drama and politics that a school lunchroom can bring on.

[00:00:55] And there is no shortage of books or movies on the topic. It seems tween and teen girls and friendship. Often go hand in hand. That's why I was so excited to connect with Jessica spear, a mom of two daughters and author of the award-winning book, BFF or NRF, not really friends, a girl's guide to happy friendships.

[00:01:18] Her book grew out of her friendship program that strengthened social awareness and helps kids learn to navigate common struggles. She has a master's degree in social science. And explores social, emotional topics in ways that connect with preteens and teens. I asked Jessica to shed some light on the social struggles in the tween and teen years, what she's learned in her work and what moms and parents can do to support their daughters.

[00:01:44] Here's that conversation.

[00:01:50] Well welcome Jessica. I'm so excited for you to be here and thank you for sharing your wisdom and expertise. I'm curious, what can you tell us about friendship and social struggles at this stage in life? These pre-teen and teen years. 

[00:02:07] Jessica Speer: Gala, thank you for having me. And what is helpful for us to know as parents, as, as we enter this phase is that it's really common.

[00:02:15] Um, so there's a big developmental shift happening. So when kids are younger, so let's say, you know, girls are going from toddlers to preschoolers, to early elementary school. The friendships are really based on proximity. You know, who's, who's nearby neighbors, you know, classmates and play. So that's the basis, the foundation of our.

[00:02:34] In our real early age there, then there's the shift that happens. And of course it happens at different ages for everybody. Some girls start this shift in later elementary school. Some it happens in middle school, but they're no longer really looking for friendships based on that proximity and play.

[00:02:50] They're looking for friendships based on sharing. Friendships based on deeper levels of acceptance. They're also starting puberty and they're also starting to pull away from their parents a little bit. So they're starting that individuation process, which puts even more weight in these friendships. So it's not surprising at all that instability often.

[00:03:12] And friendships in the pre-teen years. So I'm just keeping that in mind that this is a really, um, big developmental stage. As far as social emotional growth goes, you know, will help keep parents grounded, you know, so they can best support their girls through this process. 

[00:03:27] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Thank you so much for normalizing this experience.

[00:03:31] It's hard not to wonder, like, is this, uh, how, how much should I react? So I appreciate that you have kind of set the stage that this is very common and, um, yeah, just wanted to say that. Yeah. And I think 

[00:03:47] Jessica Speer: that part of, you know, my, my votive for doing my friendship groups and for writing this book was to normalize a lot of that.

[00:03:53] I think. We can get caught up in, oh no, something's wrong with my daughter or all these other people. There's something wrong with them, but really they're all just going through this really important phase and yes, it's uncomfortable and yes, it might feel unstable, but something really important is happening.

[00:04:10] They're learning how to be a good friend. They're learning how they want to be treated in, in relationships, you know? Stand up for themselves. They're learning how to be trustworthy. They, you know, they're learning so much and of course mistakes are common and it's a bumpy road, but it's all part of the process.

[00:04:27] And, and if we can stay really grounded as parents, like not get caught up in every single conflict, but really grounded help, you know, be the emotional coach, be the guide, you'll ask some good questions so they can really start to get some insights about what's happening in their world. You know, we're in a much better place.

[00:04:43] And if we become reactive, To these situations as well. Yeah. 

[00:04:48] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That's so good to keep in mind. Out of curiosity, since my experience is, is limited to girls and of course going through things myself, anecdotally, I feel like there's a lot of media presence or a lot of discussion around. Uh, this, this, these struggles, these friendships struggles happening with girls.

[00:05:08] Do you notice, or have you heard this happening with boys as well? You know, 

[00:05:14] Jessica Speer: it does. And I think there's something interesting going on there that, you know, parents of boys can be aware of. I, when I ran my friendship groups, they were open to boys as well, but I have to say it was really hard. To get the boys to participate.

[00:05:29] Um, and I think some of this still goes back to, you know, boys, um, being able to express, having struggles in relationships, having struggles, you know, is it okay to express these uncomfortable emotions? So I think some of that we're still dealing with as a society. The other thing though, I noticed at L at the elementary school level, um, it is often the girls that are filtering, filling the council.

[00:05:53] Um, you know, room with, with the sort of friendship struggles. And I think because they hit puberty earlier. So I do think emotions are bigger. Girls are two years ahead, but not to say the boys aren't experiencing this because they are there to do. I just don't know if they. Um, it's socially acceptable for them to really participate in things like this, which is, yeah.

[00:06:15] That kind of breaks my heart because the boys that did participate, it was so valuable for them to kind of get the tools and the skills to learn how to navigate this. 

[00:06:24] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That was just a little bit of a mind blowing moment for me. It's not that this isn't happening with boys, but like you said, our society really has made it tougher.

[00:06:36] For boys and men to show up emotionally and tap into those uncomfortable feelings and feel comfortable sharing them with others. So I thank you for framing it within that perspective. It's not a girl. And one of the most 

[00:06:48] Jessica Speer: common comments I've had when I've done events about my book. Um, moms would come up to me and say, we really need this for boys.

[00:06:56] You are right. You are absolutely right. And so actually that inspired me so much. My next book is more for middle school age and as much as possible, actually didn't attribute any stories or quotes to names or. So as much as possible, you know, keeping that, um, gender neutral, you know, to allow somebody to, um, associate with the stories that are applicable to them and not.

[00:07:22] So, yeah, so we're w we're shifting as a society and I'm so grateful 

[00:07:25] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: for that. Okay. I got chills thinking about, um, the potential impact of that kind of information for, uh, regardless of how your child identifies these are important concepts. Yeah. And it's important for them to know that they're not alone.

[00:07:41] So I, I think in your work, you know, this is a great time to jump into some of the friendship, truths that I think you've identified. Can you share some of those and how, um, how important it is for us to then share those with our. Yes. 

[00:07:57] Jessica Speer: And when these grew out of, when I said I'm always researching, um, and you know, which grew into a friendship program, I, I, and I was reading a lot of adult literature and books on this topic.

[00:08:08] Um, I kept uncovering these, these truths that are, wouldn't be so helpful for kids to know at a younger age. So that's what I started to share in my program. And you know, when we talk about these, there was like this sense of relief in the room. They're like, oh, Okay. Do you know, that explains why this is happening.

[00:08:24] So what are the friendship? Truth is friendships have different phases and change over time, you know, so if we have that in our head, as we enter this period of change and instability, we're like, okay, this is just part of this. You know, this is not me. There's nothing wrong with me. Friendships do change over the courses of our lives.

[00:08:43] Um, so, so that truth was, you know, a relief to many girls. Another truth is, you know, Friendships require a lot of skills that people learn at a different pace. So that helps to explain, you know, if we have this friendship and something is happening in there, let's just say our friend is super inflexible.

[00:09:01] You know, flexibility is a learned skill. You know, we have to learn over the course of our development to learn, to be flexible, to learn, to share. Um, so. Yeah, it doesn't mean that our daughter has to stay in that friendship, but she might see that this is a friendship that doesn't feel right, because it maybe is lacking this skill and those skills take time to develop.

[00:09:19] So, you know, helping, um, insert a growth mindset into friendships. 

[00:09:23] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Sure, sure. It's funny. We, as a mom, I can see how, um, we, we try to insert a growth minus. Into their academic settings or maybe their activities, but not necessarily in a personal relational setting. So I think it's a great reminder that that concept of adaptability and constantly learning applies to friendships as well.

[00:09:46] That's really neat. And so I think knowing these truths and knowing what you know about teen friendships, tween friendships, what are the ways you think that moms can best show up for? Kids, how can we help them? It sounds like these friendship truths are and instilling them in their kids. Our kids is important.

[00:10:08] Are there other things that you kind of recommend or suggest. Yes. 

[00:10:12] Jessica Speer: And the first one is, and I don't know if any of your listeners, you know, read anything by Bernay brown, but I just love work. And she uses this phrase called secondary trauma in parenting. Um, and sometimes when we see our kids going through a struggle, it might trigger a struggle that we had, and it puts us almost into that reactive mode.

[00:10:33] You know, we do not ask our kids to experience that because we remember experiencing that and it was really uncomfortable. So really watching for that, you know, when our daughters are struggling, it can really trigger some stuff in us as parents. So, so watching secondary trauma, good staying out of that reactive mode.

[00:10:50] So, you know, if we notice, you know, we're getting super emotionally involved in between, you know, our daughter's having a conflict with a friend and we can sleep at night and we are, you know, constantly thinking about this, um, it's time to take a step back, take care of ourselves and set up. Our reactions, what our daughter's experiencing, because it is different.

[00:11:10] You know, it might look and feel the same, but you know, she's a different person, you know, she's going to have a different journey. So, so really grounding ourselves because when we are grounded, we can best be there for our patients. You know what happens, you know, in the early teen years, if we've been really reactive to a lot of their social struggles, they're going to stop coming to us.

[00:11:31] Cause you know, they realize, Hey, well I talked to my mom about this. She's totally goes on her own rollercoaster ride and she freaks out. So I'm not going to talk to her anymore. So, you know, just really staying grounded so that we can, you know, be this grounded force, you know, help, you know, to help our girls, you know, really talk through these situations, help them navigate their emotions, you know, help them think about their options, but really helping them build the skills and the confidence to know that this.

[00:11:58] They can navigate these things. It takes practice, but they will, they will get the skills to learn how to navigate, you know, con tricky, you know, relation to relationships and scenarios. Um, you know, one thing parents can do is just keep having conversations about, you know, Hey, what do you really love about this friendship?

[00:12:15] But you know what, you know, just noticing those skills that they're looking for. Um, in my programs, we did a lot of, you know, just fun activities like quizzes, you know, what are you looking. Friendships or what, what do I bring to friendships? So they said all these qualities that go into friendship, you know, there's, there's healthy communication.

[00:12:34] There's trustworthiness, there's, you know, managing jealousy. So there is a lot, so I can see why parents. Yeah, almost be befuddled. Like where do I even start with this? Because there's so much to it, you know? And that's where all this learning over time, because there's a lot to it. And we all, you know, come to the table with strengths and weaknesses.

[00:12:53] So I think having an ongoing conversation, if you can find some tools, um, you know, that's one thing I wanted to be sure include in my book is there's lots of quizzes. You know, I still love quizzes, especially if it's quizzes about cell phones. You know, just five seats, something like that. So

[00:13:12] I learned from that, we learned she had more of an introvert. It might shift what I'm looking for in friendships. So, you know, this is a big phase of that self-awareness and yes, internal, external awareness and navigating both those at the same time. 

[00:13:28] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm Hmm. I can already feel a sense of calmness after talking with you for 15, 20 years.

[00:13:36] Being reminded that this is normal is so wonderful. Um, both for, I think our daughters to know, and for us, and then to hear that, uh, some of these concepts like trustworthiness and, um, reliability, uh, et cetera, that those are things that. We know already, we've kind of lived into the truth of why those things are important in friendship.

[00:13:59] And so it just takes a little time. Like, I feel like, oh, I just need to sit back and give it some space, identify what those are and have those conversations. I'm wanting more now to identify those important qualities and remind, make sure that my daughters know of them and, you know, help them practice, help them talk through situations.

[00:14:21] But then. Figure it out as best they can. Yes. You know, and I think 

[00:14:27] Jessica Speer: it's really easy for us as parents to start to label kids. Like one of my least favorite labels is mean girl, you know, cause that my guys don't have an equivalent to that. So I just hate that term. So, um, you know, another insight for parents as much as possible avoid labels.

[00:14:43] So, so kids are going to have some unsavory behaviors. Yes. You know, and we're going to have to be that, but let's not label any of them are on. Or the others in any way, because they're going to, they're going to be different people by the time they get out of high school. And it was, it's been fun to watch that, to see those changes.

[00:15:00] So, um, you know, by us trying not to label and put people in boxes, you know, if our kids don't see us doing that, you know, they might not do that either. Um, you know, so staying open to changes and people staying open to growth. And again, that doesn't mean we have to be friends with them. If it's not. At that time.

[00:15:19] That is okay. You know, that's, that's a really great thing for girls to acknowledge because sometimes we're people pleasers and we have to be friends with everybody, but we can, sometimes it's just not a good time for us to be in this relationship. And so as parents acknowledging that too, that's okay.

[00:15:35] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That's I, that is another great point. Um, the whole idea of not being friends with everyone, not being liked by everyone is not something I grew up. I th I feel like that was the, kind of the expectation. So I, I that's, that's empowering for our daughters to know that. And it's a good reminder to share that with them, that people won't always fit and it's okay.

[00:16:00] It doesn't mean that they'll forever not be someone that you want to deal with, but if you're not besties, if, if, if you aren't finding that someone in your class that really resonates with you, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with. Yes. 

[00:16:17] Jessica Speer: You know, and what's especially tricky now with phones is, you know, kids see immediately when they're not invited to something.

[00:16:24] So another phrase I I'd be sure to talk to with my girls is, you know, we're not always invited and, and, and yes, it hurts when we see something in a group that we sh we feel like we should probably be there cause we're friends with them and we're not, um, you know, but letting them know we're not always invited to things.

[00:16:41] Maybe there's more. The story that we don't know. So voiding jumping to conclusions, you know, just it, it's a tricky time. I think now is especially tricky with the whole technology thing where kids are connected 24 7 in some cases. Um, you know, but you know, parents can just, again be that ground. You know, not everybody's going to like us.

[00:17:01] We're not always going to be included. We can't be friends with everybody. We just do the best we can to be the, you know, the type of friend, you know, we'd like to have. 

[00:17:10] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hmm. I love that. I love that. I think this is a great point to kind of invite you to share. Um, and personal affirmation or quote that kind of inspires you and might be helpful to our listeners.

[00:17:25] Jessica Speer: Yeah. And one of my favorites and this was really meaningful to my girls and then it kind of just became a mantra, you know, for me to talk to kids about. Cause I feel like everybody can almost relate to, this is something I would say to my girls and they really took it to heart. Is. You know, when we're in a tough situation, you know, don't cower, don't puff up, just stand your ground.

[00:17:49] No. And so for my girls who tend to be more introverted and shy for them, you know, the don't cower was really powerful to them. We need to stand their ground in these situations. And then, you know, for girls in my groups that were kind of the, maybe they're the bulldozer type with, they, they kind of connected with the dope puff up, you know?

[00:18:10] So it's something, you know, that can you help girls know? Um, just yeah, to stand their ground, that they don't have to cower. They don't have to puff up. They have every right to be here and they're worthy. 

[00:18:23] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I love that. It actually reminds me of. Something that I talked about earlier in, in one of my earlier episodes was, but this notion of interrupting and how I happened to notice in a certain social setting that, uh, one particular person was constantly interrupting and jumping over someone else.

[00:18:43] It almost seemed like there was a fear of interrupting back and a fear of upsetting the person that was doing all the interrupting. So I love that reminder that yes. Uh, you know, you don't have to bite back, but you also don't have to keep getting bitten and feel like that's okay. Like you have every right to stand your ground and, and show up the way you want to.

[00:19:07] It's just a wonderful reminder of, of the messaging that our daughters should here on the regular. Yeah. We still 

[00:19:14] Jessica Speer: have that one on our bulletin board.

[00:19:23] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I learned so much from this conversation with justice. If you're interested in learning more about Jessica's book or are curious about social, emotional development, friendship, and parenting topics. Visit her website, Jessica spear.com. That's Jessica S P E E r.com. There you can sign up for a free monthly newsletter and new subscribers will get a PDF of the friendship pyramid.

[00:19:49] From the BFF or NRF book, as well as social, emotional resources. These links are in the show notes as well. So feel free to click there. Thanks for joining today. We are all making choices with our time, and I am humbled that you're spending time listening to this show. If you're on Instagram again, follow at, Noby raised them for quotes and reminders to keep you grounded, informed, and inspired.

[00:20:13] And if you liked this episode, remember to subscribe, share it with a friend and leave a review on apple podcasts and Spotify. Spotify now has a rating system, which is awesome. Again, I'm grateful for you and applaud you for listening and here's to strong women. May we know them? May we be them? And may we rate.