Generational Patterns, "Turning Red" and Turning Things Around // with Dr. Stephanie Wong

[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 

[00:00:02] Welcome to Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them, a show to help moms stand formed and inspired so they can show up for themselves and their daughters the way they want to. I'm your host Carmelita Tiu. Join me each week as I cover a variety of topics, all designed to support mindful and growth oriented moms of girls, especially girls in their crucial tween and teen years. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe, tell a friend and follow at no be raised them on Instagram and Facebook. 

[00:00:31] So I recently watched the movie Turning Red with my daughters. The film tells the story of Mae Lee, a 13 year old Chinese Canadian student, who due to a hereditary curse, transforms into a giant red Panda when she expresses strong emotions. In addition to the laughter and suspense that pics are does so well. It got us talking about family relationships and the ways that I interact with my parents and whether I interact with them, my daughters in the same way. 

[00:01:01] It really made me think about the ways that all of us are impacted by our parents and caregivers. Good and bad. Especially where there may be difficult experiences, trauma or cultural differences. In addition to the usual parent teen struggles. That's why I was so excited to chat with Stephanie, Jay Wong. 

[00:01:19] PhD. Stephanie is an Asian-American licensed clinical psychologist. Entrepreneur and founder and host of the award-winning color of success podcast. She works in private practice with tech professionals. Most of whom are ethnic minorities and at a hospital serving military veterans. Her training and clinical interviewing has led to fireside chats with diverse podcast guests. 

[00:01:43] About advancing their careers and addressing mental health and cultural identity. Dr. Wong is also a keynote speaker in academic entertainment and corporate settings, sharing her expertise in mental health, diversity training and the treatment of anxiety, depression, substance abuse. Work-related stress and relationship and cultural concerns. 

[00:02:04] Here's our chat. 

[00:02:08] I'm so excited to have you here, Stephanie. Your background and your expertise is something that I know my listeners glom on to.

[00:02:16] It's hard not to want to learn about ourselves and others in a deeper way, in the hopes of improving our understanding of our relationships, as well as what we bring to them. So I'm just really thrilled to have you here with us.

[00:02:29] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Thank you so much for having me. I we've caught up a little bit before the actual interview and you're so positive and such a joy. 

[00:02:37] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Thank you. Well, you're here today and thank you again for being here to speak about this, but a topic that's come up with people I know that listen to the podcast is one of generational patterns and cycles and this awareness that maybe we're carrying things that we didn't necessarily choose.

[00:02:57] So I'm curious, you know, I think we all sort of have a sense for what negative patterns are, negative cycles, negative behaviors, and then, understand how things can be carried down from generation to generation, but I'd love to hear the psychologist's take. What you think really is the difference between kind of negative patterns generally and generational ones.

[00:03:19] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Yeah.

[00:03:20] I'll start with a generational patterns. I think what makes it distinct from just general patterns is that these genetics and behaviors and thoughts and values get passed on from, you know, your parents or caregivers and their parents and caregivers. And it just trickles down. One of the things that I do in my practice is a cultural genogram, which is basically a souped up f amily tree, but it has a narrative to it. 

[00:03:48] And it helps us think a little bit about what were sources of shame pride. What's the socio historical context in which our families immigrated to America or another country. And it helps us become more aware of what values we want to continue to carry on and transmit to our own children.

[00:04:08] Especially since we both have daughters, we briefly talked about gender roles, but gender roles is part of it, right? Like who do we look for to be leaders in our families, in our communities, and maybe changing the script on that because times have changed. And, uh, we view ourselves in a different way.

[00:04:30] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah.

[00:04:31] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Patterns are, as you can surmise just things that may be, uh, people are doing over time. It could be very individualistic as well. Not to say that everything is influenced by generational patterns, but you know, just your general temperament and your personality and. How you're interacting with the community and yourself and how you cope with your emotions.

[00:04:59] Also, there's an intersection. 

[00:05:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Okay. Thank you for clarifying that and kind of laying it out there. And I love what you mentioned. I forget how you refer to it. It was at a Geno 

[00:05:08] Dr. Stephanie Wong: uh, cultural genogram. Yeah. 

[00:05:10] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That's so fascinating. I've never heard of something like that. And it, uh, I feel like now I want to do one because 

[00:05:16] Dr. Stephanie Wong: I'll send you the article 

[00:05:17] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: yeah. So I'm curious, you know, now that we know what generational patterns are, are there, do you notice some of them popping up more, um, you know, I happen to be of Asian descent as are you.

[00:05:31] And I just recently saw turning red that new Pixar film. And 

[00:05:34] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Oh my gosh. Well, we could talk about that and I loved it by the way. 

[00:05:38] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yes. I loved it too at, but I also 100% identified with the mom's fear of talking to her mom, not with my mom, but sometimes my dad, like he has a, a strong. presence that I think mimicked and echoed some of what we saw in the film, like just, he's a very strong person and the way that it manifests can sometimes create fearful feelings in me.

[00:06:05] And so when I saw that I was simultaneously laughing and kind of, yeah, just lots of explaining to my daughters but yeah, I'm curious, are there patterns you've seen, especially maybe with, um, immigrant families or Asian-American families. Now that we're on the topic of the movie.

[00:06:22] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Well, I think what was very special about the movies, it was talking about emotions and the intersection with culture, and that's at the heart of a lot of work that I do. Some of the generational patterns that I see are, um, emotional suppression, not really talking about emotions within the family, very different than our family, because my kids have a mom for a psychologist and it's like, well, what do you feel? I feel X, Y, and Z is what they'll say. You know, I feel embarrassed and it's very like refined. But the vocabulary or the dialogue there may not be transferred from generation to generation. I know in my mom's generation going to therapy was taboo getting a divorce. Um, and those aspects are kind of swept under the rug.

[00:07:16] And we have to think about the consequences though, to our internal coping strategies, are we able to cope with distress in a healthy way and even. Our ancestors, um, people that have immigrated, they have a lot of perhaps PTSD and pass on that intergenerational trauma that impacts the way that you're interacting with other people. 

[00:07:40] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm. Mm. You know, the PTSD reference, reminded me. I have a friend who is dating a veteran and he has a very difficult time speaking about his experiences. It's just interesting, how we need to come up with, you know, the coping strategies and the ability to dialogue and communicate about these issues I imagine in order to have optimal relationships, um, with ourselves and with others 

[00:08:07] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Absolutely. 

[00:08:08] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hmm. 

[00:08:09] So, I'm someone that I think is a kind of a personal growth junkie. I've always been interested in it. I remember reading the Alchemist and the Four Agreements, you know, all 

[00:08:20] Dr. Stephanie Wong: the you're a woman of my heart. The Alchemist one of my favorite books. I don't want to be cliche, but It's just, ah, it's timeless.

[00:08:28] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: It's so good. And then the Four Agreements, I've had it on my shelf for probably 20 years, but I had forgotten that lesson about don't take things personally and someone referenced it recently. I'm like, right. I need to tell my daughters this, this is something that, when you feel, hurt or mistreated, like, is it really about you. 

[00:08:46] In any event, so I'm someone that seeks out advice when it comes to, how can I be a better parent? So when it comes to patterns, generational patterns, do you have any advice for how moms or parents can help identify them and, and maybe, you know, reflect from a, from a distance as to how they can stop or alter it for the future.

[00:09:09] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Well, that's a very complex question. And I think part of it is, like you said, doing your own work, that is so important. Really that self-awareness is facilitated not only by, uh, reflecting on things, but getting feedback. And fortunately for us, our kids are old enough to tell us, Hey, do you feel pressure?

[00:09:29] How, Y you know, are you feeling a little bit stressed? Is mommy doing X, Y, and Z? Just to role model that we're thinking about our behaviors and it's not just us wagging our finger at them. And for us to be able to tell them our rationalization and if they agree or not. They're very honest, right?

[00:09:48] It's like, I don't want to do this, but it's like, it could be multi-dimensional as to why they don't want to do this. For instance, Kumon, we had a discussion about Kumon. The thing about it was we gave them an option to stop, to quit. And we said, you know, though, if you start over a resume, you're going to have to pick up your progress and you may not be at a place where, you know, 

[00:10:12] my youngest loves trophies. She is externally motivated, uh, to get your trophy or whatever. And so she, they both declined, but also they started seeing that in their grades, they were above level and that helped them feel ahead of the game. I am, I would say a slight tiger mom, but not really because I give my kids the options to have mental health days, and I say, It's not really going to impact your life. There's no reason why you can't take care of yourself. 

[00:10:42] So I think, again, it goes back to role modeling. Even with my staff. I tell them, take your sick leave. Take those mental health days. And also with them asking feedback from people in your network, your coworkers, your employees in a very human way, not like here's a survey, four out of five.

[00:11:03] Like, how am I communicating? But, if you could change one thing, what would it be in our interaction? 

[00:11:10] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Wow. I can see how that could be helpful and also so vulnerable. You know, I can see myself doing that with my close friends, but also being a little bit afraid of the responses. So being in that head space of, like you said, growth and willingness to evolve, even if it means maybe a little bit of discomfort along the way sounds like that's paramount, but the end result can be beautiful.

[00:11:33] You touched on something about, dialoguing with your kids and, getting their feedback. I struggle with hearing my kids' feedback and then automatically trying to come up with arguments as to why my position is right. I think it does come from how I was raised, where it was my dad's way, or, we didn't, we didn't dialogue directly with my dad about big issues. It was always with my mom and she was this intermediary and then we'd get the verdicts at some point after she's had the chance to approach my dad at just the right time where he wasn't too stressed with work, he seemed more relaxed or something. Um, so I grew up with that dynamic of, I never thought to overtly contest or challenge my parents' opinions. 

[00:12:22] So now in this, new phase that I'm leaning into of having a different relationship with my girls, I'm so foreign to having someone it's not even talking back, uh, I guess, challenge is the right way to put it. Um, so I'm wondering, are there tips or ways that moms can think of their kids or, or just kind of approaching that dynamic? So it doesn't feel like a personal affront? Sometimes for me, I feel like how dare you?

[00:12:50] I never did that. but I know that I can't show up the way that my parents did, not for what I want to accomplish, but still I struggle. And I feel like I'm flubbing it up. 

[00:13:00] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Well, let me say, oh, I'm going to humanize this because that is human that's motherhood. That's parenthood. I mean, their behavior could be annoying as heck sometimes a lot of times. Um, and I think there's a fine line between having boundaries and saying, you know, well, no, you have to shower and do your homework before you get to watch YouTube or whatever.

[00:13:23] Right. And then the other stuff, the meat and potatoes, what not, or I don't know, what's a good Asian parallel to that. Um, dumplings and rice or something. Um, but the, the idea of being curious as a parent versus trying to put these firm beliefs on them. Now, obviously with the self work, identifying your values.

[00:13:49] Like for me, I would like them to be a assertive being able to voice their opinions, even if people don't agree with them. And so I have to keep that in mind when they're telling me something and, and, and being more curious and saying, well, what, what led you to think that? And guiding them to tell me their rationale versus cutting them off right away.

[00:14:12] It takes a lot of patience. Sometimes you just don't have it. But. There are certain situations, obviously that there are hard lines. Like you don't want them to be unkind to someone or cruel or be engaging in gossip or bullying, none of that. But just in terms of doing things in certain order or things that they enjoy, I think those conversations can be approached more exploratory than shutting them down. 

[00:14:41] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hmm that's good advice. Instead of like you said, shutting them down, asking why do you think that? Or can you explain to me how you're feeling or why this is coming up for you? Yeah, I like that. 

[00:14:52] Dr. Stephanie Wong: It's, it's a work in progress for anybody, even though I'm a psychologist, it's like, you have to like breathe for a minute before you engage in that. 

[00:15:02] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I appreciate by the way, hearing you as a psychologist say that, because. There's this aura of oh, psychologists and psychiatrists and therapists. They know everything. So their relationships must be amazing. And without any hiccups and it's, it's smooth sailing, they know so much.

[00:15:21] So to know that even you have to take that breath is very, I think gratifying on some level.

[00:15:27] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Well, I think humanizing. Um, therapist even more is we are containers for other people's emotions. And so we're sitting with people constantly. I I've worked with veterans for over a decade, very severe acute issues. And when you come home, that doesn't mean that that all went away. Right. And so you're also a container for your family, for the kids and on your close friends.

[00:15:51] And so I think it is important to address. Do your own work as well, because you may be not showing up the way that you want to when you come home and that's with anybody, right. We have careers and we deal with coworkers and supervisors, and there's a whole bunch of things to unpack. So we can be present with our families, which again, continues to be a struggle in our new world. 

[00:16:17] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm Hmm. So I like to end my interviews with kind of a parting thought or affirmation, something that might resonate with the listeners and it might be since it's the last thing they're going to hear might be something that they can take with them as a learning or a nugget of wisdom.

[00:16:32] Um, do you have anything you'd like to share?

[00:16:35] Dr. Stephanie Wong: Well, I will really end with relationships is the most important currency.. And I say that to remind people that when we have our children, if you have children, any loved ones in your life, really nurture those just as much as you would your career or scrolling through your phone. I am guilty of that a lot, just because you know, the nature of what I do, um, on my spare time with the podcast. And I have to remind myself that I need to set it down because if I'm not present, then I'm really missing out on that relationship in that quality time. No one says on their deathbed, from my understanding, from the research, I'm sure there may be someone, but I should have worked more, right. 

[00:17:22] I think really nurture your relationships because those are the things that are going to carry you through tough times. 

[00:17:29] Yes. My house is always insane but in a very loving chaotic, Supportive way where during hard times we have built in support here. 

[00:17:42] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I love that. 

[00:17:44] So glad for this thought provoking discussion with Stephanie, here are a few quick learnings I had. 

[00:17:52] Number one generational patterns are the thoughts and values that get passed down from your parents or caregivers, and their parents and caregivers. Doing the work to analyze your family relationships is a key first step to understanding generational patterns. 

[00:18:08] Number two cultural genograms can help. These are family trees that include a deeper level of detail, such as the tone or fate of a relationship, gender identity of individuals, mental and physical health conditions and more. I found a good explanation of this@atherapistaid.com. 

[00:18:25] You can see the show notes for a link or just Google cultural genogram to find out more. 

[00:18:30] Number three. A common generational pattern is emotional suppression. When people don't really talk about emotions within the family. Trauma impacts the way that we react with others, including our families, and emotional suppression can hinder our ability to cope with distress in a healthy way, which leads us to pass that trauma on. 

[00:18:52] Number four. Self-awareness is facilitated not only by reflecting on things, but getting feedback. Encourage your children to share how they feel and give you feedback on how you're showing up for them. It role models that you're thinking about your behaviors and not just wagging your finger at them. 

[00:19:10] Number five, knowing your value is comes in handy when you feel challenged by your kids. For example, if you want your kids to express their opinions and think for themselves, Remind yourself of these values and use them to help reframe their opposition or pushback. Your values can make it easier to come from a place of compassion and curiosity instead of defensiveness

[00:19:34] Number six. Relationships are our most important currency. So don't take them for granted. 

[00:19:41] To learn more about Stephanie and the color of success podcast, you can visit color of success, podcast.com or follow her on Instagram at. Color underscore of underscore success. She's also on LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook. I'll put those links in the show notes so you can find them easily. 

[00:20:00] Remember, you have to take action to be something. And by listening your doing the work and showing that you are a strong growth oriented woman and mom. 

[00:20:10] So high five to you. Don't forget to follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram and Facebook and if you found something helpful or insightful, please subscribe or follow and leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify. 

[00:20:25] Thank you so much for listening. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them. 

[00:20:32]