Diet Culture (Pt 2) - Tough Truths, Tips & Takeaways // with Debbie Saroufim

[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to Know Them Be Them Raise Them, a show to help moms stay informed and inspired so they can show up for themselves and their daughters the way they want to. I'm your host Carmelita Tiu. Join me each week as I cover a variety of topics, all designed to support mindful, and growth-oriented moms of girls, especially girls in their crucial tween and teen years. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe, tell a friend and follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram and Facebook. 

[00:00:30] Today's episode is a continuation of a conversation I had with Debbie Saroufim who was featured in episode 37. You may recall that Debbie Saroufim is a body relationship coach based in Southern California, with a background in personal training. She helps women learn to love their bodies, even while working on them, build an immunity to diet culture's negative messages, and establish a healthy relationship with food.

[00:00:56] Through coaching virtual workouts and community, she aims to be a support system for her clients because when women are living a truth that doesn't involve good bodies and bad bodies. They can be the best version of themselves. 

[00:01:10] In episode 37, we talked about how to improve our relationship with our bodies, question our food rules and expand our definition of what healthy looks like. We also talked about de-stigmatizing the word fat. 

[00:01:24] In this episode, Debbie digs a little deeper into the ways we as moms and parents might inadvertently be feeding into diet culture and provide some advice on what we can do to fight it. Even as we ourselves may still be working through our own issues. Here's our chat. 

[00:01:43] Debbie, I am so excited to continue our conversation about, our relationship with our bodies. When we last talked, we kind of left off on, I think, a really powerful and direct actionable tip we can use as, as we navigate and want to role model, better practices, a better mentality and perspectives for our kids and especially our daughters.

[00:02:07] And that was about using fat in a way that doesn't carry that negative connotation. 

[00:02:13] What other advice or tips would you have for moms, especially moms that feel self-conscious about their bodies, frankly. And, you know, it may not feel authentic or, it's a little bit further from their comfort zone.

[00:02:25] Debbie Saroufim: Yeah, I think it's, it's. It's interesting. So, I spoke at my kids' school. I spoke to the parents about raising kids with a healthy body image. And then I got a chance to speak to the middle schoolers themselves and sort of talk to them.

[00:02:38] And the big thing that came back from the parents that I–first of all, I want to reiterate we're all just doing the best we can. Right? And diet culture tells us that there's good and bad, but the truth is that there are many shades of gray and there's, there's no one correct way to talk to your child. So I want to I want to say that because I think mom guilt is bad enough already. So let's start there. 

[00:03:06] But I think one of the biggest things that came up is a lot of times moms said to me stuff like, my child says they don't like this and that makes them ugly or fat or dah, dah, dah, dah.

[00:03:17] And, our natural instinct as a mom is to say. Oh, you're okay. Like you're okay. And so I remember at times growing up saying stuff like, oh my God, I'm so gross. Or I'm so fat. And my mom would say no, you're beautiful. And again, that's the implication that these two things can't coexist, right?

[00:03:39] Like you're not fat, you’re pretty right? And it's a very common and again, socially acceptable thing to say like she is so, she's fat, but she's beautiful. Well, but that's as if she's beautiful– 

[00:03:55] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Despite. 

[00:03:56] Debbie Saroufim: Yeah.

[00:03:56] And, and the truth is, is again, when we recognize it. Well, beauty doesn't look just one way. Right? We also hear "she's beautiful for her age." No, I called bull, right? Like one does not negate the other. And so I would really remind your child that you don't have to feel beautiful to be beautiful.

[00:04:18] Right? And then I would not validate a child, if a child is complaining about their size. 

[00:04:26] I wouldn't validate it one way or the other. I would just say, you don't have to feel beautiful to be beautiful. My daughter is she's teeny, teeny tiny. To the point where the doctor has been concerned.

[00:04:38] Like she has come home and been very sad that she's small and I've been able to say, you know, we don't get a choice in the size of our bodies and I love your body.

[00:04:50] And I think your body's great. And you were allowed to be frustrated that your body is small. And being frustrated that your body is small doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it. 

[00:05:03] Um, and so again, allowing this space, because we don't have to fix it. Righ? She's allowed to be uncomfortable being small. And oftentimes with weight, we think, well, I can fix this. But we don't have to, we don't need to.

[00:05:18] And then, I want to remind parents that statistically 98% of diets fail. And so even if it's a temporary fix, 98% of diets fail one in four diets, turns into an eating disorder and then four and four diets are disordered eating. So we really don't want to push our kid in that direction. 

[00:05:37] Cause we're just statistically, we're setting them up for, for a let down. So, um– 

[00:05:43] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: What was that stat about? Sorry. What was the stat about disordered eating?

[00:05:47] Debbie Saroufim: Yeah.

[00:05:47] So one in four diets turns into an eating disorder, but what we have to remember is four in four diets is disordered eating. If you're on a diet and this is the next part of the answer to your question, right?

[00:06:02] If you're on a diet and I'm going to guess, most of us listening are on a diet, right? Of some way, shape or form. If you're on a diet, That's disordered eating. It doesn't mean you're a horrible parent. It doesn't mean you're doing anything totally wrong, but it's disordered eating and it's a learned behavior and you've learned to relate to food in this way.

[00:06:22] And so. What I think though, the hard part, and this was where the talk with the parents at my kid's school got really, really interesting. I had one mom raise her hand and she's like, okay, I get it. So there's no good foods and no bad foods. And I can tell my kids that.

[00:06:36] And she's like, what, how do I explain that I'm on a cleanse because I'm, I'm trying to drop a little bit of weight in my thighs and it's hard. Honestly, and I told her this is an answer that made me uncomfortable to give. I'm pretty good at being uncomfortable.

[00:06:52] So I was like, okay, I just want you to know that I'm uncomfortable as I'm giving you this answer. But here's my answer, nonetheless, is I think that if you are on a diet -and again, I think this is going to hit home for a lot of people listening- I think if you're on a diet, what we, as the adults in this situation have to recognize, is that being on a diet to change your body does imply that there are good bodies and bad bodies. And really just accept it for what it is, which is a diet in order to change your body is an endorsement of a certain body type. 

[00:07:26] And so my advice to her was to say, hey, so, mommy grew up in a time where we were taught there were good bodies and bad bodies, and I'm having a hard time letting go of that. And I'm very, very grateful that I know enough to teach you that there are no good bodies and bad bodies except old habits for me make it hard for me to do what I'm teaching.

[00:07:51] So I'm going to teach you so that you don't have to fall into the same traps. Mommy knows there's nothing wrong with her thighs, but she hasn't figured out how to live that yet. So we're going to teach you how to live that.

[00:08:05] And then it can be a skill set that you can share with your child. So you feeling that your thighs are too big and wanting to go on a cleanse. If we have that language–can then be something you can actually talk about with your child. Right? It can be something about, isn't it kind of sad how I missed out on your birthday cake because I was afraid it would hurt my thighs.

[00:08:26] Because, cause there's also going to be a time when your child, is going to bow out of food because of peer pressure or guilt or shame.

[00:08:35] And again, just to sort of normalize, hey, you can bow out of it and it doesn't have to then be your identity. If you pass on cake at a party, one time, you don't then have to be the person who passes on cake. And just sort of identifying it for what it is. 

[00:08:50] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hmm. How did that parent react? 

[00:08:53] Debbie Saroufim: They fought me on it for a little bit. But in all fairness I think because I wasn't comfortable about it I wasn't quite as direct in the beginning. 

[00:09:02] And then there were some questions about, well, what about this? 

[00:09:04] And I was surprised how much in the, in the fifth and sixth graders, it was mostly girls who were raising their hands and asking questions and stuff. But in the seventh to eighth grade class, the girls didn't get to raise their hands once the boys had very, very, very strong opinions on good bodies and bad. 

[00:09:22] And for themselves, for themselves and were very, very angry about, it. 

[00:09:27] And again, when we look at these body standards, right, fatphobia hurts everyone.  This is not just if you have daughters, this is if you have sons, or of any gender honestly. 

[00:09:41] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah. I think, similar to gender equity, it's not just a women's issue. It's actually allowing everybody to live a more full existence for themselves. Being cognizant of diet culture and working to dismantle it is beneficial for everyone. 

[00:09:58] I want to go back to. You know, the, the mom that you were speaking with and that advice something that came up for me was if you are not in a place where you are done with the diet culture and you have to work through some things and then, acknowledging that you're working on it. I feel like that's probably– 

[00:10:15] Debbie Saroufim: I think that's huge. I think that's a huge part of it again, right. 

[00:10:18] The truth is we're all in this diet, culture pool. Nobody gets out and isn't wet. So just sort of admitting like, yeah. I'm in it. I can't help it. It's everywhere, you know? 

[00:10:29] And if you're looking to build up your immunity or learn how to talk to your kids or family, I mean, that's what I, that's what I do. So please don't hesitate to reach out. I have a private community where I do this as well and like group coaching sessions, but even more than that, you know, again, you might not be ready to work on it yet, which is totally fine, but you also might know I gotta do something.

[00:10:53] Cause I don't want to tell my kid that this is okay. So Yes. just, just identifying it as, hey, this is something I haven't figured out what I want to do with yet, but I know enough to know I don't want you to have to deal with this one day. Right? 

[00:11:06] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Would you say? So I'm kind of thinking about acknowledging that we may be on a journey of our own, but should parents try not to use numbers, like try– 

[00:11:15] Debbie Saroufim: I don't, we don't have a scale in this house. We don't use numbers. Unfortunately, and again, this is a cultural thing, right? The truth is, is that a number on a scale shouldn't mean anything except for culturally it does. 

[00:11:26] And I haven't been on the scale personally since I was in high school, in the worst of my eating disorder, because there's no number that I could see right now as a 42 year old recovered eating disorder woman. Who works in the anti-fat bias and eating disorder recovery space. There's no number I could see that would be good for me because I will either see a number that I will associate with being too big. And it will make it hard for me to trust my own hunger levels. And I'll question, oh, maybe I shouldn't be eating this because I don't like that number.

[00:11:57] Or I will see a number that I do like, and I will use that as validation that I'm a good person and either way. 

[00:12:06] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yes, it’s still feeding into that same paradigm. 

[00:12:07] Debbie Saroufim: It's still feeding into the same paradigm. So we don't do scales in this house. You know, I also would encourage you don't count calories. Don't talk about how many calories something has.  You know, anything in that realm, it can be, oh, this is really filling, right? Like cheesecake is really filling, but let's not talk about how many–cause again, we don't really have control of what our child's brain is quantifying what that.

[00:12:30] You might say, oh, cheesecake has so many calories. It's best to have a little slice. Well, if cheesecake is a lot of calories, then is a little slice, just a normal amount of calories? And it just– 

[00:12:40] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And how often are you eating it? 

[00:12:41] Debbie Saroufim: Yeah. it doesn't, it doesn't matter. So yeah.

[00:12:44] I do avoid and I would avoid the numbers all together. Yeah. 

[00:12:49] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And when, when a kid is, or an adult is okay, ignoring the numbers, but struggles with their changing body or their clothes fitting differently. How do we come to terms with that? Because I have to admit, I just had this conversation with a dear friend of mine, and we were both kind of lamenting that our clothes are starting to fit differently, even though we haven't really changed too much about our eating or exercise habits.

[00:13:13] And honestly, it's probably just age, but there's a part of us that still wants to fight for a different standard or a different ideal.

[00:13:19] Debbie Saroufim: Yes, and I am right there with you. But before I answer that, I want to normalize what you're feeling. And, I am also simultaneously holding a space that I am sad that I am not as small as I used to be. Like you are allowed to be sad about it. Again, being sad about it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Right? 

[00:13:37] So, I think it's interesting because I feel like we actually talk to kids about puberty, your body is going to change. And there's sort of this acceptance about it, but I really do think that puberty and pregnancy are like the only times that it's socially acceptable for your body to change, whereas the truth and the way we need to talk to kids about it is bodies are going to change and puberty is just a start. 

[00:14:01] And I mean, I'm working with women in their fifties and sixties who are post-menopausal who feel incredible shame around their body changing. And so really just opening up that definition of what a body is allowed to look like, because puberty is really just a start and their body is going to keep changing. 

[00:14:21] So for those of you who are listening, because your kids are already on social media, the messaging is out there to not only normalize bodies that look like theirs, but bodies, the don't look like theirs because we don't know if their body is going to look like that. I don't think my body's going to look like this in 20 more years. So I make sure that my social media feed has very big bodies, and I have naturally thin bodies, and then I have old bodies, and I have top heavy bodies, and I have bodies that hold all the weight in the midsection or some people who, again, because we don't know how our body is going to change.

[00:14:55] And so the solution is not to make peace with it the way it is right now, and then not have to do it anymore. Every day our body is changing and every day we have to do it again. So the diversity.

[00:15:06] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah and given that there is no state of fixation of our bodies, detaching from our bodies as our identity, or our physicality as our primary source of our self-worth, I can see how it's important to do that work too. Right? The way you look is not who you are. 

[00:15:25] Debbie Saroufim: No, you are more than your body and the way you look. I always talk about, there's a difference between something being your truth and the truth. So your perception of how you look that's your truth, right? But the truth with a capital T is all bodies are beautiful. So even if you look at your body and you say, I'm not attractive. Somebody else out there is going to think you're attractive. 

[00:15:49] Right? Because it's all subjective. So, someone thinking that you are attractive does not make you attractive. And someone thinking that you were not attractive does not make you not attractive. 

[00:15:57] I also want to challenge parents to remember say, people say all the time, I'm feeling fat. That's not a feeling, right?

[00:16:05] If we're talking about how do we use the word fat, fat's not a feeling; fat is a descriptor. But everybody has thought to themselves at some time I feel fat. And now what I start to realize is when I have that thought, I'm feeling really fat. What I am feeling is a lack of connection to the value that I bring, that isn't my body, right? Because we all have all this value. So when I feel fat, which is not a feeling. I am not in touch with and connected to the value that I have as a human being. 

[00:16:43] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And what I'm trying to think as you were talking, like, what would I say to my daughter if she's looking in the mirror and, pinching of perceived love handle, 

[00:16:53] Debbie Saroufim: I would, I would, honestly, I would refrain from saying anything. Culturally I think we're far too prone to jump in with comments on looks, right? And even compliments, you don't know where someone's at in their head.

[00:17:05] So I would, hold off on saying anything about the body. If your child says something like, I hate this fat here, Or I don't like this, this fold or this bump, that's where I would say, okay, well that's what bodies look like. All bodies look different, but bodies have those. And you don't have to like it, but there's nothing wrong with it.

[00:17:28] Right? But, let's also identify the fatphobia within ourselves. Because again, I have this too, seeing someone pinch the fat on their side and assuming it's a bad thing, that's the judgment. Right? And that's what we bring to the table.

[00:17:43] Which is why the best thing is don't say anything, hold early still, and then let them see, because there's a very solid chance that they are thinking something negative, so you don't want to reinforce it, but you want to let them be the one to lead. 

[00:17:57] And if they lead with, I hate this, then you're allowed to say what we in our generation were never given the tools to say, which is feeling like you don't like it doesn't mean you have to fix it, right? That you don't have to like everything about your body for your body to be okay.

[00:18:15] And I put together. For your podcast listeners, I put together a parents guide, so that, you can check it because there's some very commonly used phrases that I have to admit I've caught myself saying, so I don't want you to hate yourself when you read these, these are normal, normal things, right? And again, our job is to just become more and more informed and teach our children that hey, mommy's still learning. right? These broken cultural beliefs have been in there for a very long time. So it is normal that we will slam up against our own fatphobia and our own bias.

[00:18:47] The best thing we can do is acknowledge it. So anybody who's listening, you'll find that link in your notes. 

[00:18:55] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Thank you for creating that. I feel like parenting so much is you either are doing what your parents taught you, and if you don't want that, then you're, it's the wild west and you– 

[00:19:04] Debbie Saroufim: I know you're doing, or you're doing the opposite and you don't really know.And again, what we're looking for is gray area. 

[00:19:11] Right? You're allowed to fluctuate within your parenting based on the child and your personal experience. 

[00:19:16] And just remember. We're all human. We're just trying to teach our kids that being human is okay because we were taught it wasn't. 

[00:19:24] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I got the chills from Debbie's final words. So much to learn from this conversation. Here were my top takeaways. 

[00:19:37] Number one, when your kid says, I look fat, avoid saying, no, you don't, you look beautiful as this implies that the two can't coexist. A simple, you look beautiful. Will suffice. 

[00:19:49] Number two, if you're on a diet that is disordered eating. Recognize that being on a diet to change your body is an endorsement of a certain body type and implies that there are good bodies and bad ones. 

[00:20:03] Number three, if you're still grappling with your own body image issues, it's okay. Even helpful to admit that to your kids. You can say that you haven't figured out everything yet. You're not perfect, but you are committed to learning and growing. And you know enough to know that you don't want them to have to deal with fatphobia, feeling ashamed, or the belief that some bodies is are better than others. 

[00:20:26] Number four, ditch the numbers. Avoid talking about how much you weigh and treating it as a gauge for how you feel about yourself. Similarly, avoid noting how many calories something has focusing on numbers feeds into diet culture. 

[00:20:41] Number five, normalize that bodies will change all through life, not just in puberty or pregnancy, and appreciate all body shapes, ages, et cetera, as well, to help ease transitions as their and our bodies change. 

[00:20:57] Number six, avoid saying I feel fat. The word fat is not a feeling. It's a descriptor. Choose more accurate words. Perhaps bloated or maybe feeling full. And also recognize that what you're feeling may be a lack of connection to your intrinsic worth, that isn't based on physical appearance.

[00:21:17] Number seven, teach your daughter that you don't have to feel beautiful to be beautiful. Feelings aren't facts. She is allowed to feel frustration or dissatisfaction or dislike with parts of her body. And those feelings don't mean there's anything wrong with it or that something needs fixing. 

[00:21:36] You don't have to like everything about your body for it to be okay. 

[00:21:40] To learn more about Debbie Saroufim, you can visit bodyrelationship.com and follow her @bodyrelationship_coach on Instagram. She also has a parent's guide on what not to say at bodyrelationship.com/parent guide. 

[00:21:56] You can find these links in the show notes for this episode as well. 

[00:22:00] Thank you so much for listening today. Remember, by listening in you're doing the work and showing that you are a strong growth-oriented woman and mom, so high five to you. Don't forget to follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram and Facebook. And if you found something insightful, please subscribe or follow, tell a friend or leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I so appreciate you listening. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.