Building Monuments to Resemble and Represent Us // with Neysa Page-Lieberman

[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hello, all I'm Carmelita too. And welcome to know them. Be them, raise them a show to help busy, mindful growth oriented moms stay informed and inspired as they navigate their daughter's tween and teen years with most episodes running 20 minutes or less. If you're interested in hearing from experts, authors, they're our best coaches, moms who've been there.

[00:00:25] Be sure to follow or. And follow at Noby raised them on Instagram. So as parents to girls, I think we all wonder about the subconscious messaging that girls may get about their place in society or their ability to succeed, or whose opinions matter because they don't see women represented in certain spaces.

[00:00:45] We've all heard about women's lack of representation. Us politics and fortune 500 C-suites and aviation, by the way, is terrifically lopsided too. I recently Googled percentage of us pilots that are women, because my daughter said she wants to be one. The answer is an abysmally low six to 8%, but even beyond their career aspirations, think about the spaces your girls inhabit, like the books on the shelves of your home or on your daughter's assigned reading list.

[00:01:16] How many authors are women? The shows they watch are mostly men represented in leading roles. And thinking about the public art monuments statues in your area, are there any that commemorate women or are made by women? My guest this week, Nisa, Paige Lieberman can speak to this last question. She's a curator lecturer writer and educator with a focus on feminism, African diaspora, social practice, and public art.

[00:01:46] Based in Kansas city, since 2020, she curates, produces and consults on public art street, art and monuments. She's the co-founder and artistic director of monuments to movements in the house of radical feminist practices. A project that works to more greatly reflect our collective achievements and challenge our notions of what a monument can and should be.

[00:02:09] Prior to her current role. She was executive director of the department of exhibitions and performance spaces at Columbia college, Chicago, and the director and chief curator of the Wabash arts corridor. Nisa has produced over 300 exhibitions and public art projects nationally and internationally, including the touring, not ready to make.

[00:02:30] Guerrilla girls in the art world and beyond, and a recently launched mural and monument project to Illinois. Women's suffrage. Nisa has lectured and written extensively on public art monuments, feminist art and social engaged practices. On top of that, Nisa is one of those super down to earth. People who can break down complex ideas into easy to understand concepts.

[00:02:53] She's a mom to two. And a dear friend in our chat. She talks about her work, what monuments are and the importance of representation for all of us in public spaces. Here's our conversation.

[00:03:11] Nisa. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm excited to share your, um, you know, your insights and wisdom and enthusiasm with my listeners. You're a curator. You're an educator, a writer, a mom, so many things. One thing I know, I was not clear on when I first heard the term was what a curator is. So what does that mean to you both generally and kind of on a personal.

[00:03:37] Neysa Page-Lieberman: Kat. I'm so happy to tell you what a curator is, but first I just want to thank you for having me on the podcast, because I'm obsessed with your podcast. I've listened to everything I'm learning so much, and I'm really honored to be one of your guests. So thank you so much for inviting me. So, um, I am a contemporary art curator, which means I work with living artists and I'm also a public art curator.

[00:04:01] So that means that. I work with artists and, um, exhibiting artwork, um, with the intention that everything we create together is free and accessible and open to, to anybody in a, in a public space. Um, interestingly the word curator for anybody tuning in who, who a little, wants to somewhat of a deeper dive into what curator means.

[00:04:24] It's, it's originally it comes from a Latin word that means to care for, and so. So originally this term curator started being used as, um, to care for a collection or to care for an institution. And in my mind, it's also to care about artists and to care about their visions and, um, and different kinds of expression.

[00:04:50] So I don't work with a collection. Like if you go into a museum and there's a collection of artwork there, um, I have done that kind of work before, but not anymore. Right now I'm actually, um, commissioning artists to build brand new works that are often placed outside in a public space, like at a, at a park or in a Plaza or 

[00:05:09] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: something like that.

[00:05:10] Um, your work seems especially relevant. I think now, given what we've seen in the last year, Of, um, you know, monuments being dismantled or covered up. And, you know, I think there's so much talk about public art and what it means. So I think it's timely for the listeners to hear a little bit more about the work that goes into, um, curation of public art and spaces, uh, which leads me to your current project monuments to movements.

[00:05:42] Can you tell us a little bit about. 

[00:05:45] Neysa Page-Lieberman: Yes, absolutely. So, um, uh, in my mind, monuments are public art. And so sometimes I use those terms synonymously that's because I've been kind of expanding my thinking about what a monument is as our country has become so engaged in this idea of monuments and representation of our history.

[00:06:07] I realized that a lot of the work I've been doing with artists, um, over the past couple of decades, And its own way a monument. Um, and so with this, with this new project, um, monuments to movements, I co-founded it with, um, a colleague and friend that we both shared Jane sacks, and we envisioned this, this together.

[00:06:30] And, and part of it was, we wanted to really, um, work with, uh, communities to reconsider what a monument is, you know, is. Man on a horse in our public space, the best representation of our shared history, um, or could it be something completely different? Um, does a monument that, um, reflects our supposedly truths and histories always have to be.

[00:06:58] Um, figurative look like a person doesn't have to always be in stone or bronze. Um, can it be temporary instead of designed to be there forever? And so we started to really think about this, you know, could a monument be any kind of expression that is reflective of, of, um, maybe a history or a story we don't know as well.

[00:07:20] Um, and, uh, and I think another thing, another thing that inspired. This project was that as you know, as everybody knows, now, these monuments are being toppled, right? And so there are a lot of these monuments are being questioned. Sometimes people are saying, well, this really wasn't a great person. This person, you know, tried to uphold white supremacy or, um, or the patriarchy or anything else.

[00:07:45] You know, people are saying this doesn't really represent my values as somebody who wants to be inclusive of all differences. And, um, and so. As these monuments have calmed down, you've probably noticed that, um, there's kind of this rush to put up the new hero, you know, and I often put like hero in quotes because people are thinking, okay, well maybe that person no longer represents us, but let's find somebody else like a Harriet Tubman or somebody like that, where, you know, let's, let's put her up because she is the kind of hero that we want in our spaces that inspires us.

[00:08:25] So part of our conversations with monuments to movements is should we be rushing to find that next hero? Or should we be thinking a little differently? You know, of course everybody loves Harriet Tubman. I'm not going to say she is not worthy of hundreds or thousands of monuments. I read about her all the time.

[00:08:43] I love talking about her story with my kids, but at the same time, She was part of a movement and she was an incredible inspiring leader in that movement. But, you know, the underground railroad was not just Harriet Tubman. There were lots of other people who are known and lesser known who through bravery and sacrifice and self-empowerment, you know, helped people escape from slavery.

[00:09:13] And so the idea here is to think about less. Question this idea of putting one person on a pedestal and think about the larger movement. And one of the reasons for that is that if at some point in our future, people decide to topple the heroes that we're putting up. Now what's left there, right? We have to keep having these conversations of what do we value in our spaces.

[00:09:37] What represents that? If we think about a movie. We're talking about countless people and we're talking about a long period of time and we're talking about the evolution of that movement. Um, and so one of the things that I, I really like about that idea is that it really represents the things we do together.

[00:09:54] It recognizes, um, the masses, the foot soldiers that helped create change in our world. 

[00:10:01] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Uh, what occurred to me as you were talking was how this approach is a thoughtful response and a disruptive way to think about. The fact that we are now kind of this quote-unquote cancel culture. Like we've, we've seen the, uh, the downsides of hanging our hats on an individual.

[00:10:20] And we know, we know all too well that everyone has flaws. Everyone has evolutions in their character and someone at some point in time may take issue with any part of that, you know, down the road. I hadn't really thought of this, of what you're doing. Also addressing this, that problem, you know, looking at the broader picture of what is the movement they represent is, um, yeah, it's just, I think a wonderful solve in a sense to how do we find, um, more lasting and, and maybe better, um, representation here and, and not necessarily, it may not be the individual, but again, the, the thing that they stood for, the thing that they fought for.

[00:11:05] Neysa Page-Lieberman: Right. It's I mean, yeah. There's so many examples of that right now of, um, you know, as we think about, um, progress in our country, it's reproductive rights or voting rights or civil rights, you know, when we really dig into people's biographies, we might find things that we don't agree with or that. We are projecting our current mindset on a mindset of the past or a different set of values or educational tools of the past.

[00:11:37] Right? And so if we're looking at one person and we decide, we no longer appreciate that person, as much as we used to, it's like you to use your term. If you hang your hat on one person and then they get stripped away, right. Toppled. Exactly. What happens to that progress? We don't want to lose that. And, um, and it's also just kind of in an incomplete history to think that really any one person could have been sweeping change.

[00:12:10] It's it's it is impossible. So it's both. That, that idolizing heroes can make a whole movement vulnerable, but it's also just not the complete story because there's so many other people that have to be involved if a movement will 

[00:12:26] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: succeed. Right. So I know your background, you have kind of a special, a specific focus on, uh, uncertain areas.

[00:12:34] One of them being public art, another being a feminist works. Uh, so as you've been approaching. Monuments and art in public spaces. Can you give us a few examples of how, what we've seen historically may have inadvertently perpetuated St. Gender inequality or racism or stereotypes, kind of how things speak to us in indirect ways?

[00:13:02] Neysa Page-Lieberman: Yes, absolutely. So, um, you know, for people that are not, uh, as, um, immeshed in the art world as. It's easy to think that the, the oppressions that, uh, exist in broader society, don't, don't permeate the art world or creative culture, but, but the art world is very reflective of the broader problems that we have in society with, um, you know, prejudice towards women, people of color, LGBTQ and on and on.

[00:13:36] We have two. Think about arts and culture and representation with the same critical eye that we think about everything else. If we are. Reading a story or talking about a current event or experiencing something with our children and we stop and say, okay, we've got to talk about this issue we're experiencing or reading about or something let's think about.

[00:14:00] Was there unfair bias here? Was there prejudice? Was there misogyny and, you know, kind of those kinds of learning moments when we learn together as a family or a community. Um, to confront something and, um, to, to work, to create equity and equality, it's the same kind of thing. When you're looking at art, you know, if you really go through an art museum, do you see your story reflected your community reflected?

[00:14:32] Do you see your experience there? Um, and public art, it's the same thing. Um, you know, I I'm. I had the privilege of being taught these kinds of things by my parents, um, to, to think about, to use a critical eye when, when looking at and appreciating art and culture and questioning what should be there and what's missing.

[00:14:57] And so those kinds of things are, you know, What I talk about and what I try to teach my kids about. Um, when, you know, just think about like, um, say walking through a sculpture park or something like that, and reading those labels, you know, where those, where those labels do, those labels all have the names of men on them.

[00:15:19] Um, and what are those works about? If you are, are learning about and experiencing art and culture that, that never reflect yourself that never reflect the broader community or your values or something you can identify with personally. You know, I think that it can question your self worth and your sense of purpose.

[00:15:43] And if you don't see those things, um, uh, you need to speak up about what you want to see, you know, like, Most art and culture is paid for by taxpayer dollars. And so if there is something in your community that you have no idea why it's there, it's really not reflective of identity, then, uh, the community and values of around you.

[00:16:08] You know, maybe that's not the best thing to be there and you should be advocating for things that are more meaningful. 

[00:16:15] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yes. I, I, I liked that you touched upon, um, Being active. Uh, we do have to actively challenge ourselves to see things critically to question. And then if there are gaps, you know, help identify better solutions and help bring, bring them a positive solution into the space.

[00:16:38] Cause I, you know, I being someone who's Asian of Asian descent and a female have never seen a public sculpture of someone that looks. I haven't thought extensively about how this may have impacted my, my goals for myself or how it might be impacting my daughters visions of what they can become, but it definitely does inform, um, us in some way.

[00:17:05] Neysa Page-Lieberman: That's I think one of the things where art and, and art and culture can be a tool for. For doubling down on our values about representation, as we're thinking about the identity of the artist who made the work and what the work represents, we have to ultimately think about who commissioned that work.

[00:17:28] And when I say commission, it means, you know, what group of people got together to raise the money? To have this work created and decided what the work would be about. And historically, most of the work in our public spaces has been commissioned and created by the wealthy and powerful. And historically that would also mean men, um, because it was white men who owned most of the land.

[00:17:58] And so those are the people in control. Those are the politicians. Those are the landowners. Their values, their, um, tastes and, um, their identities have become the dominant stories and symbols and our spaces. And because so many of us have lived with that for so long. Um, sometimes we are unquestioning and then we get stuck with those because stuck with those stories and there's not as much room or space to bring in.

[00:18:31] Um, more inclusive stories. 

[00:18:33] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And I I'd like to end with a favorite, inspirational quote or thought or affirmation that you might want to share with our lives. Sure. 

[00:18:42] Neysa Page-Lieberman: So, um, I'm not great at quotes because I always mix them up and then wrongly attribute them to somebody. But I will say this, I will say that, um, uh, an exercise that we do in monuments to movements, um, we ask people.

[00:18:59] To imagine an ident, excuse me, a monument that reflects their own identity. And it's a really beautiful exercise to kind of dream that up. You know, what would I want to see that reflects my story, my community, my identity, my values, and I think it's a great exercise to do with your child. Um, and maybe your child will build that monument.

[00:19:23] One day,

[00:19:30] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I learned so much from this conversation with Nissa in the wake of 20, 20 and 2020 ones, social upheaval and pushes for change and seeing more than one monument be removed or relocated. It was fascinating to me to learn why we should think critically about them and learn ways that we can approach monuments and public art in the future.

[00:19:49] Here are a few. Other of my key takeaways, one, I loved the expanded definition of a monument as public art that can represent people or a movement and it can be made of anything or even be tempered. To creating monuments that honor movements, instead of individuals not only avoids the potential of a fallen hero and the losses that come with that, it's also a more complete and accurate story of the movement and the social impact that it had when viewing public art, ask who made it.

[00:20:25] Who commissioned it, who is depicted? Does this reflect the values of the existing community? These are things I definitely want to teach my daughters. I have to admit when we go to art museums or parks and see things, I've never presented them with these questions, or so I'm not even sure that this thought passed their minds, but on a subconscious level, I know they're being impacted by the fact that nearly everything they see has been made by, or is of.

[00:20:55] Number four, like a lack of representation in media monuments that only celebrate one type of person can perpetuate implicit biases and foster a sense of inferiority and low self-esteem in underrepresented groups. Statistic from the internet. It was not something covered in my talk with Nissa, but it was validated for sure.

[00:21:15] If you just type in and search for it, number five, if you don't feel the public art or publicly funded art represents you or the community you live in, you have a right to speak up and ask for a chance. If you're interested in learning more about monuments to movements, including inaugural movement initiatives, visit monuments to movements.org.

[00:21:39] You can also follow at Nisa underscore M two M that's at N E Y S a underscore. Em, the number two M and you can also follow at monuments. The number two movements on Instagram, those links are in the show notes as well. Thanks for listening. Your support means the world. Remember to subscribe, share it with a friend and leave a review on apple podcasts and Spotify.

[00:22:09] If you're on Instagram or Facebook, follow@noberaisedthemorfacebook.com slash Noby raised them for inspiration. Tips and reminders to help you show up for yourself and your daughter, the way you want to. Again, I'm grateful for you and here's to strong women. May we know them? May we be them? And may we raise them?